How much do the appeals panel know?
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The new Code states:
"..panels hearing appeals must not take account of where the admission authority has placed a child on the waiting list, or the fact that parents of other children on the waiting list have not appealed"
I am afraid I have not got the old code of practice to hand but I seem to remember that it said something very similar.
It rather begs the question of why the admissions authority submits the information when it is not allowed to be considered by the panel.
"..panels hearing appeals must not take account of where the admission authority has placed a child on the waiting list, or the fact that parents of other children on the waiting list have not appealed"
I am afraid I have not got the old code of practice to hand but I seem to remember that it said something very similar.
It rather begs the question of why the admissions authority submits the information when it is not allowed to be considered by the panel.
Capers123,
how might the evidence that that the appellant is at number 2 on the waiting list influence the panel? How might that influence change had the position been number 1, or say 30?
Just what is the purpose of the school admitting the waiting list evidence? Surely they can not be trying to help!!??
how might the evidence that that the appellant is at number 2 on the waiting list influence the panel? How might that influence change had the position been number 1, or say 30?
Just what is the purpose of the school admitting the waiting list evidence? Surely they can not be trying to help!!??
Re: How much do the appeals panel know?
Right. I'll have to amend that for this year by changing the last sentence to "But if we're given it in the appeal (or in the written evidence before hand, which all parties to the appeal get a copy of) and are allowed under the code to consider itthen that's OK."capers123 wrote:Not at all. Either side can bring any evidence they wish to the appeal. But the panel works from a position of ignorance - we only know what we're presented with by the parents or by the school. We are not given a copy of the waiting list, nor privately the position of an appellants child. But if we're given it in the appeal (or in the written evidence before hand, which all parties to the appeal get a copy of) then that's OK.
I'm sure you'll all be relieved to know that we have some appeals panel training coming up before the appeals in May partly to bring us up to speed with the new code, and partly because the new code says we must have training (we've had it before but they're playing safe). Although you could ask "how do they know they need training on the new code if they've not seen the new code?" - a good question indeed.
Capers
Alex is right, it was in the old Code too.Alex wrote:The new Code states:
"..panels hearing appeals must not take account of where the admission authority has placed a child on the waiting list, or the fact that parents of other children on the waiting list have not appealed"
I am afraid I have not got the old code of practice to hand but I seem to remember that it said something very similar.
It rather begs the question of why the admissions authority submits the information when it is not allowed to be considered by the panel.
Someone (the clerk or the IAP chair) should tell the admission authority - in this instance the school - to stop doing this.
If the panel were having difficulty in reaching a decision, the likelihood (or not) of the child getting a place from the waiting list might creep into their calculations!Apial wrote:how might the evidence that that the appellant is at number 2 on the waiting list influence the panel? How might that influence change had the position been number 1, or say 30?
If they give the details every time, then I suspect they're just giving all the information they have about a case as a matter of routine.Apial wrote:Just what is the purpose of the school admitting the waiting list evidence? Surely they can not be trying to help!!??
If they're doing so selectively, that would suggest some intent! However, there are different ways of "reading" the information. It might be "the child is high on the waiting list, and stands a very good chance anyway, so you really don't need to trouble yourselves about this case." Or it might be "the child is very low on the waiting list, so it should be obvious to you that there are lots of other children with a higher priority according to the admissions criteria. Should this one really be allowed to jump the queue?"
Etienne
-
langley/mum
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:33 pm
- Location: Langley,Berkshire.
"Waiting lists
4.76 There is no statutory requirement for admission authorities to maintain waiting
lists, and appeal panels have no power to determine where a child should be
placed on the waiting list for a school. Panels should take no account of where the
admission authority has placed a child on the waiting list, or of the fact that the
parents of other children on the waiting list may not be appealing."
The school I had intended to appeal at has a practise of always running at over the PAN (Publishished/planned admission number) by 5 pupils. This means strictly speaking that they should not admit anyone from the waiting list until the number on roll falls to PAN-1. So if you are at number 2 on the list, you must wait until 7 pupils have left. This might take 2-3 years to happen.
I also have evidence to suggest that the school though is admitting some new pupils without appeal up to PAN +5. This might mean that you get off the waiting list faster, or not. In addition to this I have numbers on roll figures that are different depending on where they were sourced.
Figures (PAN+5) from the school do not show as high a roll number as the county figures(PAN+6) do for Y9. This makes the schools figures tie in nicely with there stated maximum capacity. The county figures suggest a higher figure is possible. On a 4 form intake, as many as 4 extra pupils might be possible.
The county figures also show a lower PAN +4 figure for Y7 than the schools PAN+5 for Spetember 07. This indicates a place was taken, but there had been no appeal sittings according to the Head.
All of this information takes time to gather, and you can make FOI (Freedom of Information)requests, but remember that the information can take up to 4 weeks to arrive. The more evidence you gather the more questions are needed to answer the discrepancies. This extends the time needed further.
I even managed to obtain the full Net Capacity Assessment. On making deeper enquiries I discovered that the NCA figures for places in class rooms were in fact less than the number in reality. The school had also set its PAN at the bottom of the NCA scale, full capacity less 10%. I think that the setting of the PAN at an artificially low number was intentional to allow the head to pick and choose without the interference of the Appeals Panel.
I felt that if I presented the county evidence at the appeal it would be over-ridden by the schools Head. They had already breached the Code by listing the waiting list position, and they further had insisted on my evidence being with the clerk 14 days before the appeal which was in 7 days time and coincided with a school holiday. This also contravenes the Code that says no time restraints should be placed on the appellant. This was at a time when it was then not possible for more questions to be asked before the deadline.
In the end I made a PLASC (Pupil Level Annual School Census)information request under the FOI Act. The information did not arrive in time for the appeal. When it did arrive, it was different again from the County's quarterly Numbers on Roll publication, and matched the Heads figures.
Faced with a school that is used to bending the rules to suit them, I sat back and had a rethink. Did I really want to slug it out with the Head? My evidence would be just dimissed as inaccuracy at County level. I didn't think it would be technically possible to start arguing about the NCA either. This would probablyhave gone over the head of the appeals panel, and probably the Heads too.
On the eve of the appeals submission deadline, my son was offered the lifeline of a place at a better grammar school as a boarder. I felt like a pip that had been squeezed in one direction. Despite the cost, which will mean many sacrifices, I took the decision to withdraw the appeal and send him there.
There is no wonder that most parents give up without a fight. The school keeps all the cards to itself, and had I not had a helping hand from an "insider" I would not even have been aware of the factual discrepancies.
For any parent considering an appeal over over-subscription, I suggest you get as many of the above documents as you can at the outset. There will be little time once the process has started. Also get a written receipt for all paperwork you submit, right from the Notification of appeal paperwork. You would be amazed at how many manage to go missing.
Needless to say the whole process has left a bad taste in my mouth, but at least a place has been found in the end, and at a much better, but more costly school.
As an appellant, I knew that the Code was being broken, and expected a rough ride . The same school also "lost" my original appeal before the start of the year, so by the time I discovered that they had done nothing, there were no places left. The Heads PA also told us on both phone calls that we requested the appeal documents, that there had never been a succesful appeal in her 17 years at the school, on the grounds of over-subscription, again against the Code. She must tell every prospective appellant the same story.
Alas, the schools batting record remains intact.
Would I do it again? Yes, if I could not find an alternative first. Only consider an appeal if you have no viable options left. My regret is at wasting so much time on the appeal when I should have been researching an alternative plan. that would have got my son in to grammar school sooner.
4.76 There is no statutory requirement for admission authorities to maintain waiting
lists, and appeal panels have no power to determine where a child should be
placed on the waiting list for a school. Panels should take no account of where the
admission authority has placed a child on the waiting list, or of the fact that the
parents of other children on the waiting list may not be appealing."
The school I had intended to appeal at has a practise of always running at over the PAN (Publishished/planned admission number) by 5 pupils. This means strictly speaking that they should not admit anyone from the waiting list until the number on roll falls to PAN-1. So if you are at number 2 on the list, you must wait until 7 pupils have left. This might take 2-3 years to happen.
I also have evidence to suggest that the school though is admitting some new pupils without appeal up to PAN +5. This might mean that you get off the waiting list faster, or not. In addition to this I have numbers on roll figures that are different depending on where they were sourced.
Figures (PAN+5) from the school do not show as high a roll number as the county figures(PAN+6) do for Y9. This makes the schools figures tie in nicely with there stated maximum capacity. The county figures suggest a higher figure is possible. On a 4 form intake, as many as 4 extra pupils might be possible.
The county figures also show a lower PAN +4 figure for Y7 than the schools PAN+5 for Spetember 07. This indicates a place was taken, but there had been no appeal sittings according to the Head.
All of this information takes time to gather, and you can make FOI (Freedom of Information)requests, but remember that the information can take up to 4 weeks to arrive. The more evidence you gather the more questions are needed to answer the discrepancies. This extends the time needed further.
I even managed to obtain the full Net Capacity Assessment. On making deeper enquiries I discovered that the NCA figures for places in class rooms were in fact less than the number in reality. The school had also set its PAN at the bottom of the NCA scale, full capacity less 10%. I think that the setting of the PAN at an artificially low number was intentional to allow the head to pick and choose without the interference of the Appeals Panel.
I felt that if I presented the county evidence at the appeal it would be over-ridden by the schools Head. They had already breached the Code by listing the waiting list position, and they further had insisted on my evidence being with the clerk 14 days before the appeal which was in 7 days time and coincided with a school holiday. This also contravenes the Code that says no time restraints should be placed on the appellant. This was at a time when it was then not possible for more questions to be asked before the deadline.
In the end I made a PLASC (Pupil Level Annual School Census)information request under the FOI Act. The information did not arrive in time for the appeal. When it did arrive, it was different again from the County's quarterly Numbers on Roll publication, and matched the Heads figures.
Faced with a school that is used to bending the rules to suit them, I sat back and had a rethink. Did I really want to slug it out with the Head? My evidence would be just dimissed as inaccuracy at County level. I didn't think it would be technically possible to start arguing about the NCA either. This would probablyhave gone over the head of the appeals panel, and probably the Heads too.
On the eve of the appeals submission deadline, my son was offered the lifeline of a place at a better grammar school as a boarder. I felt like a pip that had been squeezed in one direction. Despite the cost, which will mean many sacrifices, I took the decision to withdraw the appeal and send him there.
There is no wonder that most parents give up without a fight. The school keeps all the cards to itself, and had I not had a helping hand from an "insider" I would not even have been aware of the factual discrepancies.
For any parent considering an appeal over over-subscription, I suggest you get as many of the above documents as you can at the outset. There will be little time once the process has started. Also get a written receipt for all paperwork you submit, right from the Notification of appeal paperwork. You would be amazed at how many manage to go missing.
Needless to say the whole process has left a bad taste in my mouth, but at least a place has been found in the end, and at a much better, but more costly school.
As an appellant, I knew that the Code was being broken, and expected a rough ride . The same school also "lost" my original appeal before the start of the year, so by the time I discovered that they had done nothing, there were no places left. The Heads PA also told us on both phone calls that we requested the appeal documents, that there had never been a succesful appeal in her 17 years at the school, on the grounds of over-subscription, again against the Code. She must tell every prospective appellant the same story.
Alas, the schools batting record remains intact.
Would I do it again? Yes, if I could not find an alternative first. Only consider an appeal if you have no viable options left. My regret is at wasting so much time on the appeal when I should have been researching an alternative plan. that would have got my son in to grammar school sooner.
Yes.Etienne wrote:Apial
Was this a foundation/VA school?
I also disliked the fact that if I wrote to the clerk I had to send the paperwork through the school. I felt that the clerk was too closely linked with the school for it to be a fair process, and that the Heads PA was coordinating the whole process.
!