Appeal Wed
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stressed mum
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Hi Phil
Good luck today, let us know how you got on.
Dear Mummog
I also took all DD books along to the appeal and the maths text book showing that he was doing year 7 work.
There were quite a few of them and they did look a little taken back.
They spent 5-10 mins looking through and then the clerk brought them out.
I will say though, that i had photocopied all his year 5 and autumns year 6 reports (exam results on headed paper) and sent them in advance so they really knew what DD was like academically.
I had also sent quite a detailed letter explaining why i thought he was a grammar school boy and why we thought there was a shortfall in his marks. About 3 sides, longer that recommended (but i could not stop writing).
My presentation was only 5-6 mins though, as all the info was already in front of them.
We were successful, he got 117 and had a 1:1 recomendation
Hope this helps
SM
Good luck today, let us know how you got on.
Dear Mummog
I also took all DD books along to the appeal and the maths text book showing that he was doing year 7 work.
There were quite a few of them and they did look a little taken back.
They spent 5-10 mins looking through and then the clerk brought them out.
I will say though, that i had photocopied all his year 5 and autumns year 6 reports (exam results on headed paper) and sent them in advance so they really knew what DD was like academically.
I had also sent quite a detailed letter explaining why i thought he was a grammar school boy and why we thought there was a shortfall in his marks. About 3 sides, longer that recommended (but i could not stop writing).
My presentation was only 5-6 mins though, as all the info was already in front of them.
We were successful, he got 117 and had a 1:1 recomendation
Hope this helps
SM
We might well ask if the parents had brought any examples of the childs work. Not so much because we want to see them, but sometimes parents forget that they've brought them and would get upset after the appeal because they haven't shown us.Nibbles wrote:I also got the distinct impression that they expected to see her books which we had also taken with us.
Don't forget, panel members are not allowed to try and judge your childs ability. That has to be left to teachers, heads and any other expert evidence you may care to introduce.
We tend to see books in about 50% of appeals - sometimes we're given photocopied excerpts of some work (and always selected to be the best), and sometimes we're given their Y5 & Y6 projects...
Capers
I wish I had not taken the school books
Hi everyone - dejavu here.
Some of you might remember me from our failed appeal last year. Dd got 112 and 118 and was born at the end of August.
I know Capers123 says that the panel are not supposed to make a judgement about your child's ability, but feel that in our case they did. I am convinced it was because of the school books which in hindsight I wish we had never shown them.
If you want to know the whole sorry saga there are plenty of my old posts under dejavu (dejavu because we successfully appealed for her older brother who has turned out to be an A/A* student).
We had tremendous HT support from our school, classed as Outstanding by Ofsted. Very high achieving year; level 5 sats predictions (one of the English sats scores level 5 at end of year 5); reading age of 13.6 when nearly 10; in top 25% for maths and english; first one ranked 2:1 in OoS (and the first one to fail); very accurate HT predictions etc.
We felt that we had convinced the panel that the 112 was a nervous blip (being so young) and as we left the Chair said "You obviously have a very bright daughter". Then we went out and they looked at the books.....
The school urged us to take the books - very high standard of presentation, excellent comments. They particularly recommended taking in the Big Writing (long essays) book as it showed she was attaining level 5s and a 6. But the book also had lower marks because it had work from previous years in it - this is what I think they must have misinterpreted. But we will never know.
The clerk's notes showed that all three panel members (two of which were not qualified teachers and the chair was a retired one who had taught at senior school, not primary!) said virtually the same thing: "standard of work did not convince me that she is yet suitable for gs", and "she is still developing and has not yet reached the standard for gs entrance".
The chair's summing up was "She appears to be a delightful girl with lots of interests and a ready willingness to learn. The school work as seen did not demonstrate the academic rigour that is usually expected at gs entrance. I am sure as her work develops further as a young student she will progress enough to consider entry at a later date".
I had fantastic support from Etienne and Sally-Anne who thought we had grounds to go to the ombudsman. The HT wrote a very supportive letter to the ombudsman stating that my daughter's work was of an extremely high standard, as was the level of her staffs' teaching - hence "Outstanding" Ofsted report.
It was a long, drawn out process and we got a long way up the Ombudsman's ladder, but he eventually found in favour of Bucks CC.
I guess that with a different panel things would have been different (the same panel on the same day turned down soemone with scores of 120 and 119!).
So good luck to everyone. Dd is enjoying her new school, is apparently "gifted and talented" for maths, and is planning to take the 12 plus a week on Monday - so I will be on the Bucks forum shortly. But we are more fortunate than some in thet we are on the Bucks/Beds border so swapped to the Beds system. So if she doesn't pass the 12plus, we have an excellent Beds upper school to go to (which she said she might choose anyway, even if she passes).
.....time is a great healer.
Regards
Dejavu
Some of you might remember me from our failed appeal last year. Dd got 112 and 118 and was born at the end of August.
I know Capers123 says that the panel are not supposed to make a judgement about your child's ability, but feel that in our case they did. I am convinced it was because of the school books which in hindsight I wish we had never shown them.
If you want to know the whole sorry saga there are plenty of my old posts under dejavu (dejavu because we successfully appealed for her older brother who has turned out to be an A/A* student).
We had tremendous HT support from our school, classed as Outstanding by Ofsted. Very high achieving year; level 5 sats predictions (one of the English sats scores level 5 at end of year 5); reading age of 13.6 when nearly 10; in top 25% for maths and english; first one ranked 2:1 in OoS (and the first one to fail); very accurate HT predictions etc.
We felt that we had convinced the panel that the 112 was a nervous blip (being so young) and as we left the Chair said "You obviously have a very bright daughter". Then we went out and they looked at the books.....
The school urged us to take the books - very high standard of presentation, excellent comments. They particularly recommended taking in the Big Writing (long essays) book as it showed she was attaining level 5s and a 6. But the book also had lower marks because it had work from previous years in it - this is what I think they must have misinterpreted. But we will never know.
The clerk's notes showed that all three panel members (two of which were not qualified teachers and the chair was a retired one who had taught at senior school, not primary!) said virtually the same thing: "standard of work did not convince me that she is yet suitable for gs", and "she is still developing and has not yet reached the standard for gs entrance".
The chair's summing up was "She appears to be a delightful girl with lots of interests and a ready willingness to learn. The school work as seen did not demonstrate the academic rigour that is usually expected at gs entrance. I am sure as her work develops further as a young student she will progress enough to consider entry at a later date".
I had fantastic support from Etienne and Sally-Anne who thought we had grounds to go to the ombudsman. The HT wrote a very supportive letter to the ombudsman stating that my daughter's work was of an extremely high standard, as was the level of her staffs' teaching - hence "Outstanding" Ofsted report.
It was a long, drawn out process and we got a long way up the Ombudsman's ladder, but he eventually found in favour of Bucks CC.
I guess that with a different panel things would have been different (the same panel on the same day turned down soemone with scores of 120 and 119!).
So good luck to everyone. Dd is enjoying her new school, is apparently "gifted and talented" for maths, and is planning to take the 12 plus a week on Monday - so I will be on the Bucks forum shortly. But we are more fortunate than some in thet we are on the Bucks/Beds border so swapped to the Beds system. So if she doesn't pass the 12plus, we have an excellent Beds upper school to go to (which she said she might choose anyway, even if she passes).
.....time is a great healer.
Regards
Dejavu
many thanks
dejavu
dejavu
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Sally-Anne
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- Location: Buckinghamshire
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Mum of 1 and 1 to go
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:22 am
Hi SM, Capers, Dejavu et al
So interested to hear all your comments, aspecially yours Dejavu. My daughter tends to write as she speaks, all in a rush with no pauses for breath. She has an incredible imagination and so the content is always good but comments like 'dont forget your capital letters and full stops', and 'should a sentence really be this long'?, I feel give the impression that she is working at a lower level. I cannot expect the panel to really give her written work the time it deserves so these comments presumably would be the sort of thing they would be taking note of.
Mummog x
So interested to hear all your comments, aspecially yours Dejavu. My daughter tends to write as she speaks, all in a rush with no pauses for breath. She has an incredible imagination and so the content is always good but comments like 'dont forget your capital letters and full stops', and 'should a sentence really be this long'?, I feel give the impression that she is working at a lower level. I cannot expect the panel to really give her written work the time it deserves so these comments presumably would be the sort of thing they would be taking note of.
Mummog x
School books - use with caution
Thanks to all my "old friends" - especially Sally-Anne (aka "Trillion" - private joke) and Guest 55 - I seem to remember you were the one that first commented that the panel weren't supposed to make their own judgement on ability!
Re school books. I guess I was just trying to put Phil's mind at rest that school books aren't everything. Mum of 1 and 1 to go and Mummog - I don't want to put you off taking school books in completely if it helps your case. I flagged a few things which |I thought were pertinent because I knew from past experience that the panel only take about 10 or 15 minutes looking at things after you have been in. I thought it would save time for them - although previous on site discussions said that some panel members like you doing it, and others think you have something to hide.
Just wish I had not given that "Big Writing" book. I remember getting it so clearly like yesterday. Rushing up to school on the day of the hearing to collect it from her teacher who had been marking it the day before. and had said I MUST include it because it was SO good. But it was an Inset Day so I had to make complicated arrangements to get hold of it.
Just make sure that the panel are aware if you include the books that they are current or include previous years work.
Good luck.
I would be happy to talk about our experiences, but just be aware that my other persona is "Marvin the Paranoid Android" - good job I've got Trillion (aka Sally-Anne )to kick me up my backside.
Re school books. I guess I was just trying to put Phil's mind at rest that school books aren't everything. Mum of 1 and 1 to go and Mummog - I don't want to put you off taking school books in completely if it helps your case. I flagged a few things which |I thought were pertinent because I knew from past experience that the panel only take about 10 or 15 minutes looking at things after you have been in. I thought it would save time for them - although previous on site discussions said that some panel members like you doing it, and others think you have something to hide.
Just wish I had not given that "Big Writing" book. I remember getting it so clearly like yesterday. Rushing up to school on the day of the hearing to collect it from her teacher who had been marking it the day before. and had said I MUST include it because it was SO good. But it was an Inset Day so I had to make complicated arrangements to get hold of it.
Just make sure that the panel are aware if you include the books that they are current or include previous years work.
Good luck.
I would be happy to talk about our experiences, but just be aware that my other persona is "Marvin the Paranoid Android" - good job I've got Trillion (aka Sally-Anne )to kick me up my backside.
many thanks
dejavu
dejavu
Lovely to hear from you again, dejavu, and it's great to know that your daughter is happy in her new school.
We do feel an injustice was done to dejavu. There would have been no argument if lay panel members had said "Despite the good school work, we do not see enough evidence overall to overturn the LA decision". Nor would there have been any argument if they had said "We note that the school assesses the work as good, but this reflects qualities that are very different from those required for the 11+, and we do not choose to attach great weight to this evidence."
Dejavu's contention was that what lay panel members should not have been doing is saying, in effect, "The professionals judge this work to be good, but in our view it is not" - not unless they can justify doing so. They should be weighing up the evidence, not re-writing it!
If a doctor submitted medical evidence to the panel, the panel is entitled to decide how much weight to give it, or how relevant it is. But not being experts, would it really be right for them to say that the doctor's diagnosis is wrong (without giving very good reasons)? This argument seemed too subtle for the powers that be. What a pity judicial review is too much of a financial risk!
Despite the injustice that we feel was done, I would not want to change our usual advice on school work - not on the basis of a single case. That advice is:
We do feel an injustice was done to dejavu. There would have been no argument if lay panel members had said "Despite the good school work, we do not see enough evidence overall to overturn the LA decision". Nor would there have been any argument if they had said "We note that the school assesses the work as good, but this reflects qualities that are very different from those required for the 11+, and we do not choose to attach great weight to this evidence."
Dejavu's contention was that what lay panel members should not have been doing is saying, in effect, "The professionals judge this work to be good, but in our view it is not" - not unless they can justify doing so. They should be weighing up the evidence, not re-writing it!
If a doctor submitted medical evidence to the panel, the panel is entitled to decide how much weight to give it, or how relevant it is. But not being experts, would it really be right for them to say that the doctor's diagnosis is wrong (without giving very good reasons)? This argument seemed too subtle for the powers that be. What a pity judicial review is too much of a financial risk!
Despite the injustice that we feel was done, I would not want to change our usual advice on school work - not on the basis of a single case. That advice is:
- 1. It is your choice whether or not to show school work. Do so if it will help your case.
2. If you choose to show school work, submit exercise books for the main subjects. Do not submit carefully selected pieces of work - it begs the questions "Under what conditions were they done? What is the rest of the work like? What is being concealed?"
3. Comments about achievement, progress, and the quality of the work are what matters, not the presentation.
Etienne
Thank you Etienne -I knew we were right
Dear Etienne
I will be forever grateful to you for your unstinting help and support with our appeal/ombudsman debacle last year - it seems so long ago.
Yes, my DD is doing exceptionally well in her middle school - but her confidence did take a mega knock with the 11plus disappointment - in her heart of hearts she may well think of being second best. I sincerely hope not - it doesn't help her being the youngest in the year - I was, and I used to have a very big chip on my shoulder (and it didn't help being the second twin - older sister by 15 minutes said I was thicker as I was starved of oxygen.! In reply, I said that I really was comfortable inside and kicked her out!)
Thank you so much for saying on this site that an injustice was done! Although eventually the powers that be (Ombudsman) did not realise that they had got it wrong (as you said - subtle) it really made it all wothwhile to know that I (you and Trillion) had done everything possible to get justice. In retrospect, talking to a lawyer friend, we did have a good case - but unfortunately no way could we afford a judicial review.
And as I mentioned in my last post - include the books if you think it will help your case. And before you give them to the panel TELL them that some of the books include work from previous years - so you can see how well they have progressed!
I will be forever grateful to you for your unstinting help and support with our appeal/ombudsman debacle last year - it seems so long ago.
Yes, my DD is doing exceptionally well in her middle school - but her confidence did take a mega knock with the 11plus disappointment - in her heart of hearts she may well think of being second best. I sincerely hope not - it doesn't help her being the youngest in the year - I was, and I used to have a very big chip on my shoulder (and it didn't help being the second twin - older sister by 15 minutes said I was thicker as I was starved of oxygen.! In reply, I said that I really was comfortable inside and kicked her out!)
Thank you so much for saying on this site that an injustice was done! Although eventually the powers that be (Ombudsman) did not realise that they had got it wrong (as you said - subtle) it really made it all wothwhile to know that I (you and Trillion) had done everything possible to get justice. In retrospect, talking to a lawyer friend, we did have a good case - but unfortunately no way could we afford a judicial review.
And as I mentioned in my last post - include the books if you think it will help your case. And before you give them to the panel TELL them that some of the books include work from previous years - so you can see how well they have progressed!
many thanks
dejavu
dejavu
