11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

[southbucks3]

The bucks test definitely has a strong bias towards English, fifty per cent of the result, with thirty for maths and twenty for nvr.

I am positive kcg is right, maths can be crammed short term, nvr skills can be accomplished to a certain level by repetition, although variations in the picture style has thrown those without natural ability in Bucks, however English success requires years of layers built up gradually, there simply is not a quick fix. I think it was Amber that said years ago that the best way to ensure your children do well in English is by chatting, this is of course supplemented by reading and writing, but making sure your child understands what you are saying is a big step in the right direction. You may be surprised how many words you regularly use in family conversation have a completely different meaning in the children's minds than the correct definition, or worse they simply blank the word out. What we may consider simple nuances completely throw children, we very recently had this realisation with the words hereditary/inherited, but even more straightforward variations can confuse, think about the simple sentence, 'he ran down the child', how confusing that would sound to a four year old, but to us it's just a normal, but lazy, way of speaking. Jokey talk is a killer too, dh and I are very guilty of this, we recently discovered son number two thought frugal meant greedy, as dh comically uses the word when chisseling the cheesy bits off a lasagne dish, or the crumbs from a cake tin, before wolfing them down.

So yes, the English does have a higher importance in many of these 11+ tests, but it is still possible to pass as long as their English skills are well established at a basic level.
Son number three is a big reader, but cannot really define words out of context, so the huge synonym and antonym component in Bucks tests is a bit tricky. Thankfully his English result wasn't so low that his maths and nvr couldn't carry the defecit. He is however a very quiet child and I do wonder if he was more talkative and more sociable then he would have a naturally larger vocabulary to call upon. Being the youngest of three boys he often just chooses to not get too involved, or is talked over. Parents can only do so much I guess.

[ginx]

Not much hope for my ds then.

His maths is very good (for year 4, anyway!) but as he doesn't read, his spelling, punctuation, grammar, (do I mean Spag?!) probably aren't great. Although he is "above" for literacy. Who knows what that really means. He will be fine whatever secondary school he goes to, he is outgoing and confident, totally unlike my older three. Strange.

Yamin151, if you found as much soggy cardboard, lego, and the contents of the recycling bin daily all over the floor, you might not love it so much ... and are you talking about your ds' in year 8?

He's demanding and argumentative - and probably tired - so I am very glad he is in bed at 7. He is of course nagging for an xbox (I hear they're £400+?) but absolutely no way. He insists all his friends have one.

He also likes writing pages of sums - and doing them - but for all I know he may have found Google's calculator ...

[southbucks3]

Ginx, I totally empathise, just looking around the house I have a shoebox I phone projector, an elastic band and milk bottle uke, and two half finished board game creations as well as row upon row of jam jars containing things found in the wood...yeuch. I put my foot down as far as the metal detector finds, they have to live in the Wendy house...until he finds a Saxon hoard of course.

Your boy will be fine, he is a busy little man, his brain is always on the go, he likes making things, so get him reading instructions from the internet on making junk things, all reading is good. Son number three spends hours reading nature pages such as the national geographic as well as doing the hands on nature stuff, I'm sure it helped, although he was very cross that our practice paper had a great comprehension on hippos, but the real one was rather less to his liking.

[Peridot]

Going back to the English issue, and with the experience of both of mine being at grammars currently, I think the schools' emphasis on English skills is right. Our children's experience has been that they have to work at such a pace in class, write a great deal of notes and have such complex essays to construct, that anyone who cannot express themselves quickly, efficiently and coherently in English will struggle. And some do, in both schools. Part of Tiffin's (the boys' school) internal entry requirement to sixth form now is a B grade in both English and Maths, irrelevant of A-level subject. Some boys won't make this grade and will have to leave.

[Peridot]

Sorry, didn't mean that to sound harsh! All I mean is that the grammars we have here in Surrey expect children work at a particular standard. Obviously you as a parent have to decide if that's going to suit your child. Why send your child to a school that won't suit their abilities...? Yes they need good maths skills but they need to be good all-rounders, and that includes the ability to communicate well using written English.

[southbucks3]

At son number two's gs, you cannot achieve a higher assessment grade in history than English, the grade is simply capped, there is talk of doing the same with geography.
I am in total agreement with you peridot, sadly some children in my eldest boy's grammar had to spend lunchtime and evenings topping up their English with extra classes as they were struggling to cope, that really is not a fun way to go through school, whilst your peers are playing fives or just chilling with friends at break time. The 11+ selection process obviously did not work for those boys.

[Guest55]

The old Bucks VR contained no 'maths' at all so any maths content has to be an improvement. There were children with maths KS2 level 3 qualifying in the past ...

In the past a level 4 English could be a level 5 reading and a level 3 writing. These days the levels are given separately so writing has a higher profile.

[ginx]

As a result of the CAT test (or similar) in year 7, dd (who did surprisingly well in 11+) was selected for extra English. She simply is not very good at it. She's always read a lot.

After two terms of English - this was reading with a sixth former and discussing the book - she was "discharged". Presumably she is now fine! English will never be her best subject.

She is very good at maths though, and yes, she did do better in the maths and non verbal reasoning in the 11+ of 2012.

Maybe you're right and it's more important to be good at English.

[Waynetta]

There's no doubt that dcs who would have gained a place in the past, eg at KES, have not scored sufficiently highly under the revised weighting

A neighbor of ours scored 120 in both maths and NVR and 103 in VR.

In the old mark scheme he would have totaled 343, easily enough for KES with an AQS of c. 335.

This year with 223 he is several marks below the AQS

Such a strong score in maths and NVR (which I thought was the clearest, unbiased by culture, upbringing etc indicator of ability) penalized by slightly above the average VR can't be right can it?

[kenyancowgirl]

I think, looking forward, more and more schools will move to a stronger emphasis on English in their testing procedures. English forms the basis of all the Arts subjects, the Humanities and is also essential in the Sciences (with more GCSE/A level exams requiring longer, more wordy answers where "the quality of your written communication will be assessed.")

Fundamentally, children coming in with "solid" maths skills (let's be honest, most of those gaining entry to KES, for example, are still coming in with high Level 5 or Level 6 Maths SATs results can be taught the maths they need to keep up. It is much harder for any school to make up ground with children who have missed up to 11 years of good vocab/reading opportunities.

So the answer would be that the 11+ now is less good for those who are only good at maths. Which is, in my opinion, a good thing!