11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

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Stroller
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 9:39 am

Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Stroller »

I've seen heavily quant projects where a team with better English did far better than one with (and I kid you not) a quantum physicist, two Economics Ph.Ds and an engineer. Why? Because the project wasn't only about producing the numbers. They rarely are. What was really essential was the ability to explain what the numbers meant, which assumptions were made and why, and on the basis of all of that why a particular recommendation deserved action. That's application, not just numbers.

I'm not saying English is more important than Maths, but rather that those who manage to be strong at both AND are rounded enough to work with others are those who should succeed in the long run.
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Peridot
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Peridot »

Stroller wrote: I'm not saying English is more important than Maths, but rather that those who manage to be strong at both AND are rounded enough to work with others are those who should succeed in the long run.
And these rounded personalities are the children grammars want to attract, rightfully I think, as they will get the most out of being at a selective school and will contribute the most to society as adults (in my humble opinion).
Yamin151
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Yamin151 »

Peridot wrote:
Stroller wrote: I'm not saying English is more important than Maths, but rather that those who manage to be strong at both AND are rounded enough to work with others are those who should succeed in the long run.
And these rounded personalities are the children grammars want to attract, rightfully I think, as they will get the most out of being at a selective school and will contribute the most to society as adults (in my humble opinion).
You should have said 'rounded children' instead of 'personalities' and this discussion could have gone off in a whole new direction!!!!

:lol: :lol:
southbucks3
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:59 am

Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by southbucks3 »

All I know is, I am going to try and help ds3 improve his written English by the time he hits gs, and so is his teacher. The content is there, the spag most definitely is not, whether this has anything to do with the way he reads, whether it has anything to do with the fact his dad struggles terribly with spelling and he has inherited the problem, it is not something we can simply hope will resolve itself. I understand he will never be "cured" but he needs help in securing the tools to get by without red ink smothering his work. Normal teaching methods have failed him, so teachers and myself are now trying a new system and using phonics introduced a year below him too, he breaks words down in completely the wrong way when asked at the moment, so we are starting again. Not that we will stop him reading his books and articles, just hopefully teach him a different way of reading that will complement his writing, rather than him having to memorise the way every word is spelt in its entirety as he currently tries to do and fails.
With just the spag element to worry about, and worry I do, I feel terribly for children who are poor at reading comprehension and written content too, as I said it can only be a fairly miserable struggle.
Ginx, the boys I mention didn't have a few months of help, they are in extra lessons week in week out and have been since year 7, they have progress journals that report on their attitude as well as their ability to write, their struggles are very public, it's just not fair on them.
Peridot
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Peridot »

Yamin151 wrote:
Peridot wrote:
Stroller wrote: I'm not saying English is more important than Maths, but rather that those who manage to be strong at both AND are rounded enough to work with others are those who should succeed in the long run.
And these rounded personalities are the children grammars want to attract, rightfully I think, as they will get the most out of being at a selective school and will contribute the most to society as adults (in my humble opinion).
You should have said 'rounded children' instead of 'personalities' and this discussion could have gone off in a whole new direction!!!!

:lol: :lol:
Very good Yamin! I actually rewrote my post twice as I didn't want to be accused of going off topic.... :D
Guest55
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Guest55 »

As a mathematician I worry about this! Being a great scientist does not necessarily mean a child can write fluently especially if there is SEN involved.

I can think of many superb mathematicians that might not get through if they had to be level 5 English .... we need good scientists and engineers.
Janeymorris
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Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:15 pm

Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Janeymorris »

It is interesting reading different points of view and there is a certain smugness from parents with bookworm children that is is their excellent parenting and restriction of computer games that has made them excellent readers, but thanks ginx for reassuring us that their are excellent parents with clever children who do not choose books as their 'me time' hobby. The point I was making is that a child who is naturally gifted at maths working at a high level, and good/average at literacy will not be rewarded in the same way as a child who is very good at literacy and average (or poor and tutored to be average) in maths in the 11 plus; if the maths is not challenging enough in the test, everyone of reasonable ability does well, where as if the comprehension/cloze is at a high level those children get a massive bonus because of the weighting. To give 2 example of children and parents I have known very well over the years who took exam this year,
Child 1 - an only child, unsporty, no afterschool activities, goes to grandparents every day, reads a whole book per day, but dull and poor communicator. Poor at Maths but tutored to be average.
Child 2 - a lively outgoing child with a delightful personality, exceptional at Maths without tutor, good literacy (level 5), busy afterschool life as talented at sport and music and has little time for reading.
Chid 1 has scored in top 30, child 2 has missed AQS by 1 mark. As a high school teacher which child would you like in your school???
The system should ensure both get a place, a school very dominant in literacy would be boring, and surely that's the purpose of the high school..they have 5 years to get child 2 up to a high literacy standard, not just expect GCSE standard in year 7. I've yet to here any 10 year old routinely spout all those big words in their 11 plus list in every day language!
Stroller
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 9:39 am

Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Stroller »

Guest55 wrote:As a mathematician I worry about this! Being a great scientist does not necessarily mean a child can write fluently especially if there is SEN involved.

I can think of many superb mathematicians that might not get through if they had to be level 5 English .... we need good scientists and engineers.
That's true, but so is the converse. Nobody gets through on English without Maths (at least not around London as far as I can tell), whereas people often got through on Maths, at least historically.
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Peridot
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Peridot »

I would wholeheartedly agree that the entry system is flawed, JaneyMorris. Tutoring children way beyond their natural abilities in reasoning, Maths or English to pass the 11+, which can lead to those children not coping when they get to the school, is just awful. At least the schools recognize this and are trying to fix it, but it is a perennial problem.

Any school would be gutted to miss the opportunity of having someone like child 2 on their roll. I do hope child 2 finds a place at a school that gives them the opportunities they deserve.
Stroller
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 9:39 am

Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Stroller »

Janeymorris wrote: I've yet to here any 10 year old routinely spout all those big words in their 11 plus list in every day language!
As opposed to the 10 year olds who are so naturally gifted mathematically that they communicate everything through algebraic expressions? Give me a break.

Hand on heart, we never worked through or memorised ANY word list. You are making a lot of assumptions and judgements.
Last edited by Stroller on Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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