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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:32 am 
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Reading posts on this forum over the past few months has lead me to question again and again what the VR test is actually testing, and arguments could go back and forth on the merits of the trio VR, NVR, maths being a more comprehensive guide to DCs 'intelligence'. My question here is are any of us, including the appeal panels or the LA expert enough to judge the best indicator of intelligence?
It seems to me we all choose the bits that play to our DCs strengths and when that hasn't worked we get (well I haven't but some have) EP reports, quote Sats tests, cats tests and more if we could only get our hands on them - we are essentially as 'selective' as the schools we endeavour to gain places at.
But an article I recently read prompted me to question a perceived wisdom sometimes proffered on this forum, that of working memory - is it needed, are other indicators more important, indeed which bits of the EP report can you discount. The article talked of various brain training techniques used by students but went on to say:
"Working memory is at the heart of the abilities we want to improve: concentration, attention and problem solving. It is also linked to fluid intelligence, which means being able to think creatively and come up with new ways of putting information together. Having a poor working memory is linked with poorer academic performance."
Many on the forum may or may not have strong opinions on the article's statement (it came from very learned sources), but I for one am inclined to agree with it. What I am unsure about is how we as parents choose to enter a 'selective' system, but when convenient choose to ignore or question that system's findings - we want another test, and if that isn't positive another. I am not saying this is wrong, just that I'm uncomfortable with the 'selectiveness' of some - intelligence of many sorts can be measured - grammar schools don't claim to measure them all, just the 'bits' they want/need.
Discuss...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:14 am 
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Location: Chelmsford and pleased
I think the need for multiple tests is that some children suffer from nerves, lack of sleep, etc before the exam that could be perceived of as deciding their future.

As parents we are aware when our children are able enough to cope with a school and hence people appeal and attempt to provided other evidence to back up their appeal.

The fact that the appeal system exists very strongly in some counties implies that the school's themselves are aware of the fallibility of the testing system.

Regarding memory - it is certainly an issue that is worth exploring - it is one of the skills that is severely lacking in low ability children and is a skill that is often worked on with higher ability children who have a specific learning need. Would love to hear what other forum members think.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:32 pm 
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Location: Berkshire
Cats12 wrote:
What I am unsure about is how we as parents choose to enter a 'selective' system, but when convenient choose to ignore or question that system's findings - we want another test, and if that isn't positive another. I am not saying this is wrong, just that I'm uncomfortable with the 'selectiveness' of some - intelligence of many sorts can be measured - grammar schools don't claim to measure them all, just the 'bits' they want/need.
Discuss...



Interesting....not sure I agree with you here. My son failed the damn test a year ago, and I have found it very very difficult to understand why. Every single piece of evidence from both old school and new school shows high achievement. The problem is..that we perceive the grammar school to be better than the rest, and so want our children to attend. Then we have a great deal of difficulty reconciling ourselves to the fact that they are not of the required standard.

In my view, these reasoning tests do nothing more than pick out the most tutored children, because VR is a skill that is taught, and if you teach and teach and teach, your son or daughter will be at a far higher level in VR than those children whose parents did just a few weeks preparation with them.

My son's test was in VR and NVR - NVR being more difficult to tutor for....he passed that one, :lol: but the VR was beyond him. And actually the score in that paper (99, with a pass mark of 111) was laughable really compared to CAT tests and SAT scores he has since achieved, the former putting him in the top 5% of the population. I have not had an EP report carried out, because I know what it will tell me, and his working memory is not an excuse for why he did not pass the exam.

Actually now I do not want another test, I am reasonably happy with where he is and he is happy because he is shining there...(at the grammar he would have been middlish I think) and that has gone some way to rebuilding his self belief which was completely shattered by the nonsense 11+ exam result. :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:10 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:18 am
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Quote:
Intelligence - what bits you need


My first thought was ..one needs.. a brain?

(Sorry, I'm being flippant as I have read too many of Mi11a's one liners. :lol: and it's too early in the morning. )

Quote:
"Working memory is at the heart of the abilities we want to improve: concentration, attention and problem solving. It is also linked to fluid intelligence, which means being able to think creatively and come up with new ways of putting information together. Having a poor working memory is linked with poorer academic performance."




Anyhow, I agree with the working memory statement.
From a sample of 2 (DCs), that appears to be correct - that a good working memory serves to produce work that is concise, organised and relevant.

One child is appears to plough through work effortle55ly whereas the other tends to mishmash his way through the homework list. Guess who has the greater working memory? It subsequently impacts on the attitudes towards working. If you find it a struggle, you will struggle even more. Would love to find out how to improve working memory.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:26 am 
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I don't think the 11+ tests intelligence at all - it tests tha ability to jump through a particular set of hoops on a particular day. That's why it's so hugely unfair.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:12 am 
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katel wrote:
I don't think the 11+ tests intelligence at all - it tests tha ability to jump through a particular set of hoops on a particular day. That's why it's so hugely unfair.


Agree in a way but there must be some measure of inte11igence to be able to proce55 and complete the tests succe55fu11y, not just capability to remember techniques and reca11 times tables etc..

Is it po55ible to have a link to your learned source, Cats12?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:43 am 
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katel wrote:
I don't think the 11+ tests intelligence at all - it tests tha ability to jump through a particular set of hoops on a particular day. That's why it's so hugely unfair.


I think you're generalising a bit, 11+ tests vary widely. Some of them are certainly like that, but not all. However, everyone can have a bad day so any test that depends on a single day's performance will have a degree of randomness.

Mike


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:32 pm 
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laid back son worried mum wrote:
(Sorry, I'm being flippant as I have read too many of Mi11a's one liners. :lol: and it's too early in the morning. .

I was in bed! and STILL being blamed for stuff!
and what's with the numbers for letters - is this all part of the cloak and daggery.
Anyway, back to OP, yes, a brain most deffo.

_________________
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Milla wrote:
laid back son worried mum wrote:
(Sorry, I'm being flippant as I have read too many of Mi11a's one liners. :lol: and it's too early in the morning. .

I was in bed! and STILL being blamed for stuff!
and what's with the numbers for letters - is this all part of the cloak and daggery.


I didn't want to point the finger at you, Milla, for leading me astray on many a flippant post but since you owned up ..heh heh heh..


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:29 pm
Posts: 2049
Location: Wirral
Milla,

LBSWM has a dodgy keyboard, her letter "s" is missing therefore she has to substitute it with a "5". Unfortunately she refuses to put her lottery win to good use, instead she lives the life of a scullery maid (because of her paranoia of being identified :lol: ) Meanwhile- her bank manager has 6 holidays a year to the Caribbean and eats lobster and caviar for breakfast.

AM


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