Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

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Looking for help
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Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Berkshire

Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by Looking for help »

I just think it is absolutely shocking that a party who vowed to scrap tuition fees instantly changed their minds once in a position of power. All thi s about the financial situation being worse than they expected once they got in is outrageous. Next door's cat knew the extent of the deficit, if they didn't know, they are either lying or stupid, tbh I'm not sure which.

Where will all the kids go now that don't go to university as a result? The dole queue ? Maybe they're only hitting it 3 years earlier, who knows. I feel very sorry for my youngest 2 children, and sincerely hope that this does not put them off further education, as I simply cannot afford to pay off this level of tuition fees, which I am in a position to do for my first 2.
mm23292
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Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by mm23292 »

I know they are not based on academic merits ourmamainhavana, but they stem form the fact that the once esteemed degree, is now sought by far too many, and a lot of those seeking it, simply don't, won't or can't reap the rewards it once did merit. Contribution is key, and a degree in retail floristry might sell flowers, but it will offer little else. If anyone watched BBC news last night, the bandana round the faces mob, 'college boys from the poorest London slums', ranting on about how they can't be expected to find 9k a year, well, going back to the original thread on this, obviously, they don't understand. Looking the government gift horse in the mouth, and racking up more public spend while they are at it, with their thug like disgraceful behaviour. And as for the working class or middle class talented being deterred in any way, I totally disagree. I wasn't deterred in the slightest by the fact that I had no hand out, grant or otherwise, to help continue my education, and I know many others the same. The country cannot and should not continue to support this growing trend for mass mediocre education, it serves little economic return. What was it that Socrates himself once said..the more he learned, the more he became convinced of his own ignorance'...
KeepCool
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Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by KeepCool »

To mm23292 - I completely agree with everything you just said. Bunch of hooligans pretending they are protesting..... why should the taxpayer fund these thugs' education? How dare they desecrate statues and fire missiles at the police - the police should have used tear gas, water cannons and stun guns - absolutely disgraceful behaviour.

As for chanting "off with their heads" at Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall, do they really think the taxpayer should pay to educate such mindless idiots - they have no business going to university - Prince Charles did not lobby to up tuition fees - we don't need mentally challenged thugs like that at university. 8)
Looking for help
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Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by Looking for help »

Do you really believe these 'mindless thugs' are bona fide students? These campaigns are always hijacked by left wing extremists.
There is a real issue here and all these that hijack what should be peaceful democratic protest do a real disservice to those genuinely upset by tuition fee increases. Camilla is another matter though :wink:
T12ACY
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Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by T12ACY »

mm23292 wrote: And as for the working class or middle class talented being deterred in any way, I totally disagree. I wasn't deterred in the slightest by the fact that I had no hand out, grant or otherwise, to help continue my education, and I know many others the same. The country cannot and should not continue to support this growing trend for mass mediocre education, it serves little economic return. What was it that Socrates himself once said..the more he learned, the more he became convinced of his own ignorance'...
DS1 stood half way up the stairs this morning looking quite forlorn and said 'I could justify around £15k of debt for my degree, but think well over £30k is substatially so much more that I am not convinced about how worthwhile it would be'. My response was that if he wants a career which will pay him 3 or 4 times of the 'average' he will do it. On the other hand if he is happy to settle for less then he shouldn't.

We are very much working class and he is being deterred because he doesn't want to be saddled with such significant debt for many years to come, a sensible outlook IMO. With a higher interest charge than he had anticiapted I am proud of him for taking the decision so seriously. I consider him talented, a member of NAGTY for Mathematic ablity, he doesn't want to study some meaningless degree but there will be no support for him other than loans. His opportunities for education have now changed, as he is likely to opt for the more local uni's if he does apply so he can live at home and avoid rent / food costs and we can support him in that way. An indication to me that he is wanting the education and not just the 'student life' so I will help him all I can, but when I see his friends whose parents have split and as such DC gets all their education for free despite mummy living in a house valued at a million quid I am deflated. It does seem somewhat unfair and an abuse of 'the system'.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery.
KB
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Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by KB »

Would it not be better to return to the old system where there were University places for academic pupils on courses that stretched and educated them and a range of shorter courses (some studied while working) to prepare the less academic for the jobs available to them. Most of these do not require institutions of academic excellence so could ,as before, be provided locally & reduce the costs to both student & government. I fail to see for example why students from our town have gone all over the country to train as nurses while others come into the town from elsewhere to follow the same course!

I was shocked when my DC started at University & discovered how little teaching the non-Science students receive. Both my DCs are studying science & have pretty full timetables (lectures, labs,workshops, tutorials etc) but some of the Arts students get 2 lectures & maybe 2 seminars a week. I know they have to study more hours than this by themselves but it does seem like rather easy money as far as the departments are concerned.

Maybe the fees should be dependent on the number of hours of teaching provided?
Snowdrops
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Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by Snowdrops »

Gosh some really fascinating and interesting responses. It's nice to see the considered replies rather than the usual knee-jerk reactions.

I think we all have an opinion to give and we should all listen and maybe learn something from each other's point of view and CM, you are NOT inflamatory, you just think differently sometimes :D

I agree with so much of what has been said regarding the mob/thug mentality and I do wonder if there are any non-student activists in there purely there to stir up trouble, with well intentioned students getting caught up in it all. And yes, I don't think they all understand what's been proposed at all!

One thing which I have heard over and over again is it's their 'right' to an education. Well, I've been thinking about this one and I don't believe it is anyone's 'right' to have a university education. I think it's everyone's 'right' to get a primary and secondary education, as laid down by government way back when (sorry, can't be bothered to Google for the exact year it was deemed all children aged between 5 and 16 MUST attend full time education - now raised to 18!). But there is no law that says people MUST attend university, it's a CHOICE. I think it's a great shame not everyone will be able to take advantage of that CHOICE, but the Labour government who tried to make it available to all has brought this country almost to it's knees and we are now paying the price - the price, in this instance, is raised university fees.

I do wonder why the figure of £9,000 is being bandied about anyway, the average would work out to be £6,000 - scaremongering by the papers again!

As for how much debt these young people will leave university with, it's nothing new. My son went to university and gained a Masters degree in chemistry, leaving uni 10 years ago, he left with a £15,000 debt (and that was with working at a part time job) so I can't but wonder what students/parents thought the cost would be - free perhaps?

I shall come back to this later - once you've all bitten my head off :lol: :lol: :lol:
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mad?
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Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by mad? »

KB wrote:Would it not be better to return to the old system where there were University places for academic pupils on courses that stretched and educated them and a range of shorter courses (some studied while working) to prepare the less academic for the jobs available to them. Most of these do not require institutions of academic excellence so could ,as before, be provided locally & reduce the costs to both student & government. I fail to see for example why students from our town have gone all over the country to train as nurses while others come into the town from elsewhere to follow the same course!
I could not agree more.
mad?
guest201
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Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by guest201 »

I agree with snowdrops I dont believe it is anybody's "right" to have a university education, and we should think carefully about who is paying it, students dont believe they should have to fund their own studies, but why should the taxpayer fund it, there is an enormous proportion of taxpayers who havent been to uni whose children wont go to uni so why should these people be funding the education of other peoples children (they are already funding many things that they probably dont benefit from). If the government had stated that university was everybody's "right" then of course they should fund it and everybody would go, and then where would we be???, but that is not the case. I am afraid our society has turned into a society of "we have a right to this we have a right to that etc." what a lot of people seem to have forgotten is that "with rights and benefits come duties and obligations" in other words "you dont get anything for nothing in this life"
ourmaminhavana
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Re: Student Protest Marches - a couple of points!

Post by ourmaminhavana »

mm
And as for the working class or middle class talented being deterred in any way, I totally disagree

I'm just speaking from my own perspective as a mother of two intelligent children whom I had hoped would go to university here. There's no way my husband and I would be happy for them to incur the amount of debt that is likely to be in the region of at least £40k when tuition and living costs are taken into account.

mm Do you not think this policy will discourage bright children from going to university?

KB I agree entirely, horses for course. I actually think there's something immoral about encouraging 40% or so of the population to go to university when we don't have a 40% graduate workforce ( or at least not engaged in graduate jobs.)

T12ACY what a moving and thoughtful response from your DC. I had been trying to shield my own from it all so that he didn't become too dispirited.
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