Wanted to ask this for a long time

[sgcmum]

Found this

In January 2010 some 220,890 (or 2.7 per cent of) pupils across all schools in England had statements of SEN, the same percentage as last year.
It includes school going children of all ages.

[mystery]

It is interesting this question of what kids have to do, and that quite often they will do it and get to like it if school requires it. So like you I suspect there are children who don't do as well as they could at KS2 if there were some kind of swift consequence for not doing so that they could easily understand at that age. Maybe summer school??

It is hard to know in practice how to do that though.

At a personal level, my two are conscientious, hardworking (kind of) etc etc at school. But even at the tender ages of 5 and 7 they know what they do and don't have to do, in a very legalistic kind of way. They have the school homework policy imprinted in their brains (not sure how, I have never given them a copy). If the teacher says it would be a good idea to do something at home, they will not do it, but if it is set out in the homework policy, or the teacher says they must do it, then they will. So if I ask for it I will get the response "but the teacher says it would be a good idea to do it, we don't have to do it". Factually they are always correct, but in other ways they are so wrong! In this instance school gets in the way as if school did not exist I would just have told them to do it if it was a good idea.

Aaargh. I'm a useless parent.

[push-pull-mum]

My concern is the total absence of requirement,which most kids can do,but don't at the moment because they don't have to.whether holding them back or having them streamed at high school is the next step.

DD's school seems to do a certain amount of 'back-door streaming.'
eg. They are setted for Maths and English (largely on the basis of SATs results but some modification takes place in the first 3 weeks of term.) The more able, by and large, are taught German rather than French - also children who didn't acheive a level 4 are given additional help in Maths and English, often instead of learning an MFL. All this has a knock on effect on the timetable so DD is, by and large, taught alongside children who have acheived secure level 4s in one or both subjects. The exceptions seem to be classes like PSE and DT Materials where there appears to be a mix and match policy. DD's least favourite subjects are, unsurprisingly, PSE and DT Materials.

Found this

In January 2010 some 220,890 (or 2.7 per cent of) pupils across all schools in England had statements of SEN, the same percentage as last year.
It includes school going children of all ages.

Ooh, well done, sgcmum!
What about School Action etc? Statementing is only the last step in a long haul.
Would you just pop off and research that, oh wise one? - I'm too busy counting the broken biros in my handbag for Mystery.

edit - My kindle, one packet of tissues (closed), one packet of tissues (torn and slightly brown around the edges), my purse, mobile 'phone, spare mobile 'phone, door keys, ex's door keys, church door keys, work door keys, two inhalers, 3 biros (1 broken), propelling pencil (no lead), work ID, book on Powerpoint, 2010-2011 diary, 2011-2012 diary, empty wrapper from a Galaxy cookie crumble, school dinner menu, parental half of a letter about a school trip, ABRSM guide to Music Theory, and a mysterious stain - hope that helps, Mystery.

[sgcmum]

Mystery,
My DD is the same. Tried submitting her RS homework in a tiny scrap of paper bcos 'teacher didn't say it had to be a4'. Got convinced to do it on an a4 after a lengthy argument.
As far as effect on 11+ pressure, I have seen that one of the many reasons parents put kids thru this is that the alternatives are so bad they push their kids even though they might not actually be capable.and how they feel after they haven't got through is horrible. May be if they had a better alternative, they wouldn't feel as bad.(judging capability is a whole different topic,but with some one can to the extent tell) or may be they wouldn't even put them thru this process.
P.s I don't carry a handbag.Or didn't used to,until DD absolutely refused to go out with me unless I had one- mainly used to stuff her assorted things inside.it looks like a ball now.

[mystery]

Try 5.56 of the SEN Code of Practice 2011. It's delightfully vague.

I am volunteering with some year 5 children on "school action" . In their numeracy they are level 1 or 2. Any Sencos on here know if this would be considered to be "substantially behind" and therefore worthy of school action plus?

My own view would be that they just need more action to take place at school and at home but there isn't enough
of it because no-one cares enough.

So even if you found out the percentages on school action and school action plus I don't think it would mean very much?

[xyzzy]

Throughout dd's 11+ process I have been wondering..why is there no requirement to achieve at least basic levels before children move on to high school? And thereafter? After all in other things like swimming one is only sent up to the next level if the child completes 8/10 tasks set etc. Maths and English or 'numeracy' and 'reading' are far more important.

It would be a spectator sport, although one not for the faint of heart, to watch the dispute as a parent whose child is struggling to learn to read and is being held back from progressing to the next year on that basis argues that because their child's failure to read is caused by dyslexia, they should progress even though they are not capable of work of the sufficient standard.

That's the current policy for admission to (some) grammar schools and (most) universities. People who cannot do written work to the generally acceptable standard are assessed to to whether the reason is a specific one --- dyslexia, say --- or a general one --- not being bright enough. For those whose inability to do written work is down to the former, provisions are made to allow them to do the rest of the course which they are perfectly capable of doing so long as they receive extra time, a scribe, etc, etc. For those whose inability to do written work is down to the latter, they are not allowed into the selective institution.

If you imposed a written work standard on annual progression, you would either {a} take all the people currently given extra provision and hold them back or {b} make diagnosis of dyslexia and so on a massive growth industry, at the expense of having children who can't do the written work being moved up anyway.

Whatever your views on the prevalence of dyslexia, imposing what amounts to selection at each annual stage would make for a bloodbath.

[scarlett]

I know of one girl at my DC school who should be now in year 5 but has stayed down in year 4...her NC levels are just scraping level 2. She seems to be doing a lot better and also visually " matches " her peers .( she's a young one in the year ...or old now I suppose ! ) Thinking about the year 6 children last year who left without achieving level 4...they all seemed to have common factors. Parents, who although not uncaring, were those who didn't do any extra at home but felt it was purely the schools responsibility. They were children who moved into the school from year 3 or above.They left their old school due to behavioural issues. I'm sure that won't match all...just has at my DC school.

How long would you keep children at primary for anyway ? Would it just take a year or until their trousers were scraping their knees ?

My handbag is empty, Mystery apart from my purse and phone.I've emptied all the old tut into DHs man bag. That will be a nice surprise for him.

[sgcmum]

I understand dyslexia. My dad is one albeit in a minor way. How he wrote and passed all his exams I don't know.(he is a chartered accountant). He was never diagnosed,but with all the increased awareness it is clear that he has always had this issue.
The evaluation techniques will have to be adapted to suit special needs.
A child in my family is two classes down her age due to multiple problems.she has had about 10 different surgeries,can't see very well,in short a sort of miracle child. She is allowed a scribe,an attender. But she still tries to do the best she can and is encouraged to do so in a non pressurised way,both by the school and the family( has an excellent brain though)
But there is already an evaluation taking place.it's just that kids are not aware that it's in their interest to actually reach the threshold,which I think should come from both parents and teachers.
If that is done,the need to keep children back,if at all done,will be reduced to a minimum.or may be a catch up course of some sort? So that they won't be at the school where they started years ago and their trousers are scraping their knees

[push-pull-mum]

How long would you keep children at primary for anyway ? Would it just take a year or until their trousers were scraping their knees ?

And how many of us would actually want to send our children to a primary school full of 12 and 13 year olds with educational and behavioural issues?

But there is already an evaluation taking place.it's just that kids are not aware that it's in their interest to actually reach the threshold,which I think should come from both parents and teachers.
If that is done,the need to keep children back,if at all done,will be reduced to a minimum.or may be a catch up course of some sort? So that they won't be at the school where they started years ago and their trousers are scraping their knees

Of course, a fair number of the children who fail to acheive level 4 have very poor attendance records but I doubt whether any child in Year 6 is unaware of the importance of SATs (except maybe in some consistently over-acheiving schools?)
And who is going to fund and staff this 'catch up' school? If it's pleasant and well run then where's the deterrent? If it isn't then it's child cruelty and, in any case, the children will truant.

33% of children failed to meet government targets for Maths and English at the end of Key Stage 2.

Apparently 17% of children are 'SEN' - the overwhelming majority of these are then educated in Comprehensive School.

Would the remaining approximately 16% (there are, of course, some children with SEN who acheive or exceed government targets) get level 4s if they weren't allowed to progress to High School without it?

I'm doubtful.

I suspect that sgcmum is just thinking along the lines we've all gone down at some stage in the 11+ rollercoaster - "There has to be a better way than this!"

Yes, there does - but I don't think this is it.

[scarlett]

Mystery, what's the difference between school action and the action plus ? Do you think you can make a difference with the year 5 children....do they just need a bit of 1 to 1 ? I'm wondering if a real difference can be made lower down in the school with some of these children ...rather then waiting until they are substantially behind .As you know, DS2 was on the watch list for SEN in year 2 , and luckily I knew that and so started my health days with him.I think he might pass the 11 plus now and is certainly where he should be.If I hadn't started the extra 1 to 1, I wonder if he might have got further and further behind and then started messing around to hide it.