Tiger Mothers programme.

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scarlett
Posts: 3664
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:22 am

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by scarlett »

I didn't know it was on..but I really enjoyed the last programme about Amish teens so shall watch it on catch up.Just had a quick look and am trying to guess which boy is your nephew Rob ! George ?

I have to say Mystery whatever parenting style our DH display will always be considered just not up to scratch by us...it used to drive me mad when DH would indulge in rough housing/ floorplay/ roly polys with the boys...I'd feel like snapping " can't you do something constructive ?" ( like a page of sums :P ) but now I read it's good for a boys development. Not that I'll be telling him that , of course.
succeed
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:13 pm

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by succeed »

Just watched 'Tiger Mothers' - wow! I must admit, I was full of admiration for the high levels of self discipline these parents have and then instill into their children. I went from being inspired to making 'a few big changes around here' to lamenting that it was all too late now :oops: The only criticism I would have is of the 'goal' orientation, where the child's future was mapped out by the age of eight. I found the safe career choices slightly out of step with the very ambitious journey in getting there.

It was interesting to hear the reasons given for the differences in work ethic . I'm not fully convinced that it is all down to originating from a culture where there is no 'safety net'. There wasn't a safety net in Britain till 1945, and I don't think our ancestors before this had nearly the same work ethic as these people. Perhaps if we had Confucianism instead of say, King Henry viii, things would have been different :lol:

That said, think of all the jobs we are supporting by taking all these self gratifying holidays , and indulging our children in pc games etc :wink:
poiuyt
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:35 pm
Location: England

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by poiuyt »

there was another programme on at the same time, something like History of grammar schools, there were anecdotal stories of war time children being 'tutored' to pass grammar school entrance exams. So this has been happening for many decades based on this simple fact.
mike1880
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:51 pm

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by mike1880 »

It's inaccurate to suggest that there was no safety net before the reforms of the late 1940s, but it might perhaps be argued (depending on one's political stance) that the National Assistance Act of 1948 introduced the novel notion of entitlement.

However, I think the work ethic aspect is perhaps no more than you'd expect amongst what is basically a self-selecting minority of economic migrants. I imagine all of us know people from a variety of backgrounds who are happy to work 16 hours a day. Such people have always been with us; singling out an ethnic group for any supposed trait, even a work ethic and resulting economic success, is worrisome.

Mike
succeed
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:13 pm

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by succeed »

By reference to 1945, i was considering the Rowntree report which singled out idleness, disease, deprivation and lack of education as the causes of ills in our society. This report led to the large scale welfare reforms, though I accept there was some degree of safety net following the Liberals campaign for NI to support those who lost their jobs, thirty years beofe that.

All international IQ tests have placed Asians , particularly from the far east, at the top of the table.This is not a new phenomena and was apparent well before the successful rise of the Chinese economy. I don't think 'Tiger Mothers' can be just lumped with all economic immigrants who appreciate the benefits of a strong work ethic in the host nation. There appears to be something quite unique to their level of ambition and self discipline which I think can only be explained by other forces unique to their culture and far from it being 'worrisome', I think it is quite healthy to discuss this.
mad?
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Location: london

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by mad? »

Rob Clark wrote:
Recorded it and will 'stage manage' happening upon it in between Great Expectations (still only on 2nd episode) AND 'Living with the Amish' in a veritable feast of 'look at you, you are so privileged and lucky' ranting.
Did anyone else watch the ‘Living with the Amish’ series? My nephew was one of the 3 boys on it, would be interested to hear people’s thoughts…
I will be trying to work our which one he was... I think both series have been great and have raised lots of conversation points with DC, not all of which have involved me ranting :oops: . Having seen how some of the UK kids behaved when they hosted the Amish here I was worried that this second series would be cringingly embarrassing but I thought it was brilliant and all the kids came over as respectful, sincere and intelligent. I thought the girl who was from Hackney and is now at Cambridge was particularly impressive and that the boys should be praised for agreeing to what has to be one of the most deeply unflattering haircuts of all time. I wonder Rob, now that he is back in the UK does your nephew find himself unable to contain his physical urges if he sees a button on a piece of ladies clothing? No, thought not :)
mad?
dani*
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by dani* »

DD had 2 Chinese girls in her class at Primary school. Both miles ahead in terms of education compared to the rest. Also very polite and lovely girls. One of the girls often said that she only wanted to achieve 100% in tests because anything less than that would put her mum to shame. She also said that if she didn't get in to the super selective school her mum wanted her to go to then she would have to move back to Shanghai. To me this seems like a lot of pressure on a young girl, however, the child in question was a good friend of my DD and from what I have seen she was/is a very happy child.

When my dd moans that she has a lot of homework, I will remind her of this programme.
succeed
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:13 pm

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by succeed »

Hi Dani,
My son told me a similar story about a Chinese boy in his class last year. He received 4 distinctions at the end of yr 8.He phoned his mum on receipt of the report ,as instructed, and relayed the results. My son was dismayed as his mum was very angry with him and asked him why he hadn't achieved distinctions in every subject :shock: The boy was in tears. And this is in a super selective indie with lots of extremely bright boys. Hence, this 'high ambition/ work ethic' has certainly got it's downsides and indeed some parents clearly lose a grip on reality in pursuit of excellence.
mike1880
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:51 pm

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by mike1880 »

succeed wrote:By reference to 1945, i was considering the Rowntree report which singled out idleness, disease, deprivation and lack of education as the causes of ills in our society. This report led to the large scale welfare reforms, though I accept there was some degree of safety net following the Liberals campaign for NI to support those who lost their jobs, thirty years beofe that.
The safety net existed long before that, but I take it you mean state provision. The 1940s certainly saw the nationalisation of welfare provision (along with other major national undertakings) but it was by no means the origin of it. It's an interesting thought (although I'm not sure if it's a relevant one) that without something close to a welfare state (at least, widespread affordable education, social mobility and reasonable equality of opportunity) there is no benefit to be had from exercising a work ethic - even if there's an opportunity to demonstrate one. Irrespective; I see nothing unique about the "Tiger Mothers", I've seen equal determination and commitment from people from other ethnic backgrounds (including many white English people, however unbelievable that may appear to habitues of this forum).

I stand by my suggestion that it's not a healthy thing to pretend that this is a trait of a particular ethnic group; Ugandan Asians, German Jews and Rwandan Tutsis can all testify that it's not always beneficial to be perceived to be doing better than the surrounding majority, even (especially?) if it's because you work harder, and I'm not sure that the caricature Tiger Mother is ultimately any more flattering a portrait of East Asian people than stereotypes have ever been.

I'm not sure what your point is about IQ tests. We've discussed them before, notably during the "cultural capital" debate. Leaving aside the merits or otherwise of using them (or their close cousin, the 11+ test) for assessing differences between individuals of similar cultural background, I think we can safely say that IQ test results from different cultures suggest that whatever they are measuring in such cases, it isn't primarily intelligence. Whatever that is.

Mike
Last edited by mike1880 on Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
scarlett
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:22 am

Re: Tiger Mothers programme.

Post by scarlett »

mike1880 wrote: I've seen equal determination and commitment from people from other ethnic backgrounds (including many white English people, however unbelievable that may appear to habitues of this forum).

I used to work in an adolescent unit which catered for teenagers with anorexia and suicidal tendencies and something which seemed to feature heavily was academic pressure from parents ...it was 50/50 whether they were educated in a grammar or indie but nearly all were white ...although of course other factors may have prevented other ethnic groups from going down that route.
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