Schools asking parents to declare private tutoring etc

[mad?]

How many children from state primary schools apply to exclusive independents anyway? If the exclusive independents genuinely want state school applicants, then I reckon the only way they are going to access some of the 'bright but poor' children is to go out and look for them...ie go into schools and talent spot. Then offer big bursaries to the parents of those they want.

The indie (former grammar) my DDs attend attempted to do this with our primary, the few applicants from which had been highly successful. They were told in no uncertain terms (I was a governor at the time so was aware of the, ahem, 'debate') that the primary would not be doing anything which they perceived supported the private sector nor selective education of any kind. That the local secondary (to which, I hasten to add, none of the teachers send their children) was fine, and the school's focus should be on building and strengthening the relationships with it. I understand that view to a degree, but there are indies out there which are trying, the system is all just so flawed that I fear anything is a drop in the ocean.

Any system which requires parents to choose to enter children for an exam, be it in the private or state sector, is going to be self-selecting and many people will be disadvantaged if they do not know how to access tutoring. For that and many other reasons lots of bright children never get put forward for entrance exams, let alone pass them.

Indeed.

I love the idea that tutoring for exams would be banned, but it is entirely unworkable unless schools change their selection criteria every year and spring surprise tests on ten year olds. ('right everyone, pick up your needles, and begin your sampler. Oh, you thought it was making hollandaise sauce? That was last year I'm afraid.')

I love this, although my DDs would have failed miserably on both sewing and cooking!

Best of all would be non-selective schooling, but that is a pipe dream...

I agree, no selection on faith, 'ability', post code, income. Good schools for everyone. Sigh, pipe dream.

[Caroline1852]

My two eldest sons had no difficulties whatsoever securing places at academic independent schools directly from a state primary, without tutoring. And <gasp> they were placed in the top sets, ahead of many children who'd come directly from supposedly academic prep schools.

The reason few children from state primaries apply to exclusive independent schools is because they don't have the wonga, not because they don't have the brains.

[hermanmunster]

My two eldest sons had no difficulties whatsoever securing places at academic independent schools directly from a state primary, without tutoring. And <gasp> they were placed in the top sets, ahead of many children who'd come directly from supposedly academic prep schools.

The reason few children from state primaries apply to exclusive independent schools is because they don't have the wonga, not because they don't have the brains.

Probably true "not the right place for us". I know man who used state primaries for their bright kids then sent them to indies (because they were best schools in area). Saved themselves money. However indies not always the best schools and in many areas the GS are full of well off parents not having to stump up school fees.

[Tailsmo]

Do music schools expect children to have mastered their instruments without teaching? Do dance schools expect children to be great dancers without practice? How can children perform to their best academically without preparing for the entrance test?

Whether preparation is through school lessons, at home with parents, at homework clubs or with a tutor, it's all preparation. Schools surely don't just rely on the results of 1 entrance test, but liaise with the current primary to see what the child is like every day, not just on one day?

We were asked to declare preparation. I told them. Didn't stop them offering DD a place.

It makes me laugh to see all the chat about to prepare or not to prepare, mostly from lucky parents who have such bright DCs that they can ace tests with no extra work. There is no shame in working hard, that's what life is about. DD works hard at school, but they aren't preparing DCs for indie entrance tests, so she had to work hard outside of school too. At her new school in September, she'll work hard there. It will all be fine.

[hermanmunster]

Do music schools expect children to have mastered their instruments without teaching? Do dance schools expect children to be great dancers without practice? How can children perform to their best academically without preparing for the entrance test?

very good point! Suppose truth is that no one can do these things without practice..

Whether preparation is through school lessons, at home with parents, at homework clubs or with a tutor, it's all preparation. Schools surely don't just rely on the results of 1 entrance test, but liaise with the current primary to see what the child is like every day, not just on one day?

Unfortunately they do .. maybe not indies, but state schools it is a case of above or below the line on 1 or 2 tests

[mystery]

I just read the OP again carefully. St Paul's seems to be hinting that children who were coached tend to do not so well in their entrance papers? So maybe the parents who come clean and say they coached the child in some way are more likely to get a place as St Paul's will assume they got a lower score because of the coaching, and view them as higher ability than the score would suggest!!

Oh the whole thing is just silly. I wonder if schools asking about this is really something to do with their charitable status and nothing to do with their entrance procedure at all. Maybe they have to have some evidence that bright children can get into their school, and get scholarships and bursaries, without the expense of coaching. So a pack of lies from parents will help the school maintain its charitable status, but really have nothing at all to do with anything else whatsoever.

It certainly shouldn't influence anyone in the decision to coach or not to coach should it? Aren't the best educational decisions by parents usually not exactly what a school would tell you to do or not do, but ones where parents have thought it through intelligently for themselves, in relation to their own individual children, rather than a "herd"?

Maybe there's also a bit of a truth test here. Perhaps there are some ridiculous questions on the paper (bushels etc) which unless you had specifically prepared for that particular question you are very unlikely to be able to answer. But again, I don't know whether the school would consider a parent lying about coaching a positive or a negative. It's all very hard to second guess.

If you feel a school would be just right for your child, and that coaching (either DIY or paid for) will help them get in, what's the big deal? If I were a head it would impress me. Aren't a lot of these processes selecting the parents as much as the child?

[Cranleigh]

Thing is St Paul's have said they think 'coaching' can be counter-productive. if I sent mine along from a state primary and admitted I'd been tutoring them outside school, does this amount to 'coaching'? (Is there a difference between tutoring and coaching?)

I think they wouldn't mind in this instance, but I'm guessing. I think they want sparky, clever children who will be stimulating to teach and, as they might see it, best suited to an academic environment. I think they don't care which sector they come from, state or public. I get the feeling they are trying to avoid an overly coached child from a prep school but could be wrong. As someone else said, they have a generous bursary programme in place and seem keen to support the bright child who couldn't otherwise afford the fees.

That said, any child that can pass those difficult entrance papers shows plenty of potential IMO and so surely thoroughly deserves a place? A child that has plugged away for ages (with a tutor or otherwise) and can show the originality of thought and good understanding the exam requires surely also shows that they might have a certain industriousness that will stand them in good stead for public exams, study in the future & a likelihood of becoming an asset to the school?

What about a child who has actually become smarter due to hours of practice and intensive coaching? We don't really believe in those in the UK I've found.

Do they, and other extremely good academically schools like them, only want those who have the innate, absolutely brilliant, intellect & are trying to establish if potential candidates have this or not? If so surely these are extremely few and far between? I believe such sheer brilliance with no effort or input at all is largely a myth.

Also such a genius might not be as tenacious and well rounded as another that might be seen as 'overly coached'?

Also loved the sewing and cooking analogy and would dismally fail on both counts .

[Cranleigh]

Hello, Mystery.

St Paul's have openly said they think coaching can be 'counter productive'.

Have you seen the example, exam papers available on their website? You can't even attempt to do the English writing task unless you understand the question. There's also a complex comprehension question on Time whereby you have do some off the cuff statistical analysis and display original thought. Quite hard to prepare for I think and very stimulating and interesting it is too.

You hear so much these days about 'over tutoring' meaning children will 'struggle in a grammar'. Generally I've never agreed. Surely though it's much easier to prepare for NVR and VR than this very specific and complex exam?

Anyway, I thought interviews were there to apparently catch the 'over-tutored' (whatever that means) out? (Not that I agree.)

[Amber]

If a school seriously wants to know whether a child has been coached or not, they should just ask the child, 'what have you done to prepare for this test?'. You can coach for many things, but telling barefaced lies to an adult in authority is probably a step too far for most.

[Caroline1852]

If a school seriously wants to know whether a child has been coached or not, they should just ask the child, 'what have you done to prepare for this test?'. You can coach for many things, but telling barefaced lies to an adult in authority is probably a step too far for most.

Agree. Even the ghastliest parents would hopefully draw the line at tutoring their child to lie.