Parenting issues

[Amber]

Interesting, mad?

I wonder if it is because as a society we have spent so long telling girls to be 'strong' that we see it as quite attractive if a girl 'knows her own mind' or is 'feisty and tough'; whereas a boy would be called 'aggressive' and 'arrogant' if he showed the same characteristics. Parents of girls often talk proudly of their daughters' strength and independence; I don't think I have ever heard a mother boast of her son's strength or feistiness in quite the same way.

Sorry to take this OT, OP.

[daughter]

I sort of agree with what Mad? and Amber are both saying - the behaviour which I think is best and correctly described as "bitchiness" is not acceptable and is a form of bullying. When i have thought that my DD's may have been on the other side of the "bitchiness" I have come down hard on them. I think (as a generalisation) boys bullying is much more upfront, less subtle perhaps

In talking about the film I certainly never condoned the bitchy/bullying behaviour but if you have a DC going through something similar i think it is a useful tool to talk it through. It would be great if the world was free of bullying but let's face it it doesn't just happen with mothers at the gates, but in the workplace, politics etc ... being able to recognise the behaviour/traits may in someway alleviate symptoms as well as eventually helping to eliminate it (I don't believe bullying will ever be totally eliminated as sadly I think it is part of human nature for boys/men and girls/women - not excusing it though!).

[mystery]

I think with many teachers and parents the bitchy stuff goes unseen and unheard so it's very hard to do anything about it. The bad behaviour that gets jumped on is the more "honest" bad behaviour - either very loud or very visible while it takes place, or with a very clear end result (blood on the nose etc). In general the sneaky quiet bitchy stuff gets ignored as it does not disrupt the playground, the meal, the lesson too obviously, and the other more honest bad behaviour gets squashed by the teacher, parent etc.

There's a sneaky, bitchy, friend nicking type in one of my children's classes. She also manages to be every teacher's pet. There's a very nice boy who is constantly in trouble. Life just isn't fair in the woman-ruled primary school world!!

OP, maybe you could open a telephone helpline - call it "bitchline" maybe? Charge 50p a call and provide advice to both girls and mothers ............. you could be a millionaire.

[neveragain*]

Such an interesting topic. My dd ( now17, in year 13) has had a lot of problems with girls friendships over the years but has always, thank god, come home and talked about it. She goes to a Gloucestershire girls grammar. I have found the school helpful in specifics but unhelpful in at they also seem to accept the girls will be girls bitching as red. ( read?) I think we all need to work together as Amber suggests to change this. I found talking about women's issues/ feminism really useful for my dd and her friends. On the topic of books I recommend " best friends worst enemies" by thompson and o Neil Grace and " hold onto your kids" by Neufield and Mate to be really helpful. I feel passionately that our teens really need their families and that the peer group is allowed to be too powerful for kids. Of course they need to individuate and be with friends but being with people of all ages and being with adults very important too. My dd says that the most problematic and 'bitchy' girls are those whose attachment to their families are very weak. Interestingly my Dd is considered very cool (naturally slim and pretty, and loves cool vintage individual clothes) but has been teased for being bright and hard working and different. She has been through hard times but has come back to us and talked it over and has now found a lovely group of girls who can all articulate their differences. She has taken over a senior school leadership role with responsibility for emotional health and she is now challenging teachers and senior management of their handling of the younger years. She has also challenged the teaching in the mixed sixth form where in some subjects ( notably politics) the classroom replicates, in her words, the house of commons, with boys shouting out and belittling the girls opinions. In the teachers defence they have changed their classroom management now! But it has been a painful long road. As a professional I felt I should have all the answers sometimes but I know that being there, listening and supporting her as a wonderful individual was all I could do. Blimey, and I thought self tutoring for 11 plus was stressful!

[neveragain*]

Mystery maybe you have the ideal business plan! All my dd friends talk to me about this stuff - it can really effect your whole esteem. Have any of you read Margaret Atwood book about femal bullying? Cats eye?

[magwich2]

I think a lot of the problem with girls is that there is always a "cool" group who are rarely the most pleasant of girls and many of whom will come to no good in the future. I have a feeling that I would be unlikely to get on with their mothers.
What really really defeats me is why so many other silly little girls aspire to be part of this group. I am very pleased to say that neither DD ever wished to join them (and DS will not be encouraged to befriend them).
I do not understand why any parent would ever want to encourage their daughter to fit in with them and wonder why we cannot persuade our daughters to be less needy and more prepared to stand up for themselves and not try to comply with the lowest common denominator.

[Chelmsford mum]

I have three girls and there are often friendship issues but the worst bulllying mine have ever suffered both verbally and physically has been inflicted by boys. I think we have to be careful not to stereotype girls entirely on this thread.
I love having daughters - in fact if I could have guaranteed a fourth daughter - I might have sought to have another.I am sure I would have loved a boy too but there is so much I relish about having girls.

[Chelmsford mum]

I have three girls and there are often friendship issues but the worst bulllying mine have ever suffered both verbally and physically has been inflicted by boys. I think we have to be careful not to stereotype girls entirely on this thread.
I love having daughters - in fact if I could have guaranteed a fourth daughter - I might have sought to have another.I am sure I would have loved a boy too but there is so much I relish about having girls.

Although...I think a 4th girl might finish my husband off.Even our pets are female

[Amber]

There's a sneaky, bitchy, friend nicking type in one of my children's classes. She also manages to be every teacher's pet.

My pet hate! There is one in most classes mystery, and don't go thinking it changes at secondary school. Very adept at 'under the radar' bullying and usually worshipped by teachers for their shiny smiles and all-round goodness. Very hard to persuade a school to take action against the class superstar.

I have often spent my break times at school fielding the girls who have been ostracised for some breach of an unwritten fashion code, or having the wrong phone, or just not looking like a clone of the others. Very sad. I work with children who have fallen behind...almost all the boys lack confidence in their own abilities, whereas the girls I work with tend to overestimate themselves and blame poor teaching and 'boring' school for the mess they are in.


Just caught your post magwich and I do agree. It's a hard path to encourage one's daughter to take and at times I have wept at the cruelty of other girls, but ultimately they will be richer and stronger (in a good way) for being true to themselves. I have to believe that or I will jump off a cliff.

[neveragain*]

Certainly I love young women and girls., and boys and young men too. I think all children, boys and girls, need guidance about how to be in a group and how to stand up to others and how to be proud of who they are. My ds (11) is quite a soft boy and has had to learn that being like that is fine and that he needs to spend time with people who make him feel good about himself. He has also however had to learn to let some comments roll off his back a bit as he is very sensitive, or was. He is definetely more robust now and ready, I hope, for life in a boys gs.