Pre-school problems

[sherry_d]

[Looking for help]

If she hates it take her away.....there's no need to put her and you through this every day.
No toys, just equipment - it sounds like a gym or a prison to me. She's only 3....what happened to learning through play ?

On my local radio there is an advert on about a montessori nursery - and it is buzzing along telling everyone how they promote independence from a young age blah blah blah.

Heck we are talking about 2 and 3 and 4 year olds here..in my view, nursery should be a place where the child and the mum can have a break from each other for a couple of hours, and it should be where the child can have some fun and learn how to interact and get along with other children before they have to go to school.

[First-timer]

If she is deeply unhappy I would be inclined to remove her or ask for her to be in the care of a different member of staff.

Deep breath. This is the bit you may not like - sorry! You have referred to your daughter as being strongwilled, headstrong and a force to be reckoned with. Your DH has suggested professional help for her behaviour. I don't know her but he does. Could it simply be that she is used to getting her own way if she kicks up enough of a stink? It can be tempting to paint undesirable behaviour as some sort of strength of character rather than deal with the unpalatable truth that the child knows exactly how to manipulate his/her parent(s). She doesn't like when she's told to do something she finds unappealing. Neither do I. Neither does anyone. The problem is that her behaviour is potentially dangerous as she is willing to crawl under cars to avoid the thing she does not like. I really do not want to offend you. It's just that reading your posts paints a picture and while I think the acute problem needs to be dealt with swiftly, you may wish to keep an eye on a slower burning problem which may cause further issues down the line.

Good luck!

[mm23292]

Some great feedback here, thank you. That's what I love about this forum, there's a wealth of experience out there, always a better angle to view a problem from!
After yesterday's major meltdown, the 'dragon lady' seemed very affectionate towards dd when I returned to collect her. Promised her a sticker if there were smiles this morning, and talked about how good she was after I had left. And this morning, she marched in very eager for that sticker Having said that, Friday afternoon is when she goes to the creche, and she was so excited about that, babbling away in the back of the car about how much she was looking forward to it. The light at the end of the morning tunnel perhaps??
I definitely need to make some tough decisions on this one, like you say drummer, the last thing we want to do, is sow the seed of some obedience phobia, goodness knows what could lay ahead

[um]

Personally from having 5 children, and having learned the hard way in a few cases, I would take your child's concerns and fears seriously despite her young age. I would be surprised if it was all merely the result of a temper tantrum.

As has been pointed out, a little separation anxiety, which then calms down once at the setting, can be normal at this age. Ultimately you'd still expect the child to have positive memories and feelings toward the setting.

This sheer terror is something different and may indeed be due to the care worker who now has responsibility for your daughter, or the changes now that she has joined an older year group. From your last post, however, it seems as if there has been some discussion and this care worker has tried to deal with the issue.

BTW my youngest attends a Montessori nursery, as did my 3rd and 4th. I sent them because this nursery in particular is very small and staffed by generally middle-aged ladies (not bored teenagers, as most nurseries here seem to be!) who have a lot of genuine care and affection for the children.
There is an emphasis on 'free choice' and the ethos is one of respecting children rather than shoe-horning them down a particular curriculum or academic route. My dd was reading and writing stories by the time she finished, yet my ds3 was happy to continue playing and spending more time outdoors, unable at that stage to write his name, for example. He simply wasn't yet mature enough to sit at a table 'working' and the teachers understood and accepted that completely. For each of them, at that stage in their development, it was the right thing and my ds3 wasn't made to feel he was any less cared for or 'naughty' or less able.

It would be unfair to suggest that all Montessori nurseries have the ethos of the one that has been described. In terms of 'fantasy play' my ds4's nursery has a large rack of dressing -up outfits, as well as dolls houses, baby dolls, pushchairs, and more, which he really enjoys playing with. It doesn't appear to be discouraged.

[mm23292]

I totally agree with you first-timer, I am not offended at all. This strong-willed characteristic is certainly not something we see as being an all round positive. It causes problems for sure, she does not take orders from anyone. And yes, she knows that if she kicks up a big enough fuss..she might..but I say that based on who is in command at the time! just might get her own way. Daddy tends to be the more passive disciplinarian, I on the other hand, am not. I'm sure this conflict of parenting styles is confusing sometimes. We have tried to correct this of late. Sing from the same hymn sheet so to speak. From the time she was born, she has been like this, it took weeks and weeks of endless hours stood by her cot, constantly placing her back down to sleep, as she persisted with wrought iron will to resist. She was waking six times a night or more until she had an operation for obstructive sleep apnea three months ago. We have tried to make allowances for that too of course, a tired child with poor quality sleep, is not always going to be easy to communicate with on the behavioural front. It has been a shock to the system. DD1 was the most placid obedient child you could imagine, and DD2 is quite the opposite. But adorable of course...they always are. The joys of parenting!

[mystery]

Oh I don't know. I really think you have to go and watch secretly. And if they won't let you that tells you something. My DD could be described as stubborn, but actually she is not at all in real school situations. However, she didn't want to pick rubbish off the floor at pre-school, and I was asked if she had a hearing problem in reception because she didn't hear the tidy up bell.

Loads of these children who you see being "perfect angels" start "disobeying" when they are a bit older and then the parent who hasn't had to learn some good behaviour management techniques early on is sunk. I heard friends of mine complaining about their children doing things at 4, 5, 6 that mine started at 2. I just heaved a sigh of relief that I was past it earlier than them!

Some adults are great at turning an intelligent child who realises quite early on that they don't actually have to do everything they are told into a stubborn one. Unless you compare and contrast a few good techniques, and see what they do at the Montessori nursery (which may be Montessori by name or nature) you will not really get to the bottom of this one. My tip is never to describe your child as stubborn or strong-willed to anyone, and especially not a teacher or nursery assistant ..... don't give a dog a bad name and all of that.

You see there was a reason for your daughter not sleeping well. She wasn't being stubborn. Quite often you can look back and see a reason for a behaviour issue long after the event, but there is no way you would have fathomed it out at the time.

I don't know how hold your child is, but, for example, jumping to the conclusion that hiding under a parked car is "worse" say than hiding her head in your clothes on arrival at nursery is a bit strong for a young child.

I really think you need to go and watch otherwise you are never going to know what this is all about.

[mystery]

Oh by the way Drummer and Amber - I like the sound of that longitudinal piece of research. I can well imagine its findings were right. Of course, it probably says as much about the parents as the impact of the style of nursery education.

It's a particular type of parent who chooses a very formal, possibly strict, pre-school. I really don't see the point of that. Also, very strict families do not produce the best products in my view - probably more alcoholics, divorces and drug-abusers. I have some relatives like this and they drive me wild - always lecturing children about thinking about others, forcing them to share things they don't need or want to share, being quiet,eating everything when they really are full etc etc - when they try and do it to my children when I am around I feel like telling them exactly what I think about their lives ... high divorce rates and no love for others really evident.

I think Amber you've misunderstood me - when children are being taught I want them to get as much as is possible out of the situation e.g. why be forced to take a rubbish reading book home and read it rather than a good one, why sit in a middling group at school and be given trimmed down class work and homeowrk when you can do more interesing stuff than that etc. That's not to be mixed up with nurturing style or whatever you like to call it.

Personally this pre-school worker described by mm sounds a bit rubbishy, but without seeing her in action I couldn't be sure. It's impossible to know at the moment whether the relationship between the child and the pre-school worker could improve or not. The other thing that is interesting is that there is no mention of whether or not this child has friends at the pre-school. Clearly if she had some other lovely little buddies in the group, having to e with the battleaxe all morning would be softened.

[mystery]

Ahh just read your latest post mm. It does sound like the dragon-lady has used a few more tricks at least. Do you think she has been reading this, or someone else in the nursery has tipped her off?

Everything she has said to you and your daughter to date has seemed so negative, but that looks like a turn around. Maybe things will improve now. After all with the small number of children per adult it shouldn't be too hard to adjust to each child in some way should it?

It just remains to be seen if she has some more ideas once the allure of stickers wears off.

[DIY Mum]

This is one of the most repeated and misunderstood aspects of Montessori. Montessori did talk about distinguishing between fantasy play and "real work but she believed creativity actually comes through observation and real life. This is why it is important to build up a child's observation skills of what is really around them. Instead of pretending to be cooking dinner, children learn more by actually cooking. It is important to note here that her problem with fantasy or dramatic play her was when it was teacher led, not child initiated. There won't be toys, dolls, play kitchen but they have lots of open-ended art materials just not the crafty pre made and cut material type. Traditional teachers think that imagination is repressed because the kids don't have a dress-up corner and pretend food, as if that was all that was necessary to be imaginative.

While some people question why there's not as much dramatic play in the Montessori classroom, I can question why there is not as much concentration on the part of the children in a traditional classroom. Both are fine and it's nice that there is the variety, as both are striving for creativity through different mediums and can suit one child and not the other. Dramatic play is one way to do this but concentration and focus on meaningful activities for the child is actually a very successful way to do this too.

To be sure not all Montessori schools do it the same way, in fact loads call themselves Montessori when they only adapt one or two aspects because Montessori is a non trademarked term that anyone can use.

I think I do understand Montessori . Otherwise my three years of Montessori training resulting in a distinction in Montessori Pedagogy conferred by MCI would seem a serious error in misjudgement on their part

Yes, for Montessori, true creativity emerges from real life based activities. A child looks at something and holding that idea in mind is then able to create something from that. Kinda like a scenario during the ancient times, when someone noticed that water gathered in a shell and was thus inspired to invent a bucket.

But to clarify about sociodramatic play (as developed by Smilansky): it's not about playing with dolls, having push chairs / prams, stirring toy peas in a plastic pot etc and it certainly isn't teacher led. It's more of a type of interaction between children acting out their negotiated roles (with or without props). Lots of children involve themselves in this type of play and you'll see these play skills developed in very good Montessori nurseries too. What is interesting to observe however, are teachers' reaction to this type of play when a child initiates it (not just Montessori ones but mainstream ones too).

OP: -urge the nursery to allow you to observe even if it is discreet and go through the process of elimination (her relationship with key worker, play pedagogies, and her behaviour etc). If she's still unhappy, I would most certainly pull her out.