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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:05 pm 
Is the eleven plus test a test of future potential?

If it is and a child can pass it,does it really matter what levels they are achieving at school? or are the levels achieved at school a direct reflection on the quality of teaching,not necessarily of the childs ability?

I have a child who is in year 5, and will most probably get level 4's in their sats next year, however they get between 85-90% when doing 11 plus practice papers.

I am unsure as to whether to sit the test or not as I am sure they can gain a place,but am unsure they could cope when they get there.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:54 pm 
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My understanding is that the maths and english papers measure the standard the child is at, and that the VR and NVR papers measure potential.

If it is of any help, my daughter is in Yr 6 and felt the NFER english paper was considerably harder that the SATS one and the maths NFER paper slightly harder than the SATS. She is predicted level 5's and got a very good pass in her eleven plus.

Your child is obviously doing very well in the practice papers for the 11+, are you sure their SATS predictions are accurate? Even if they are going to get 4's, they may just be missing the level 5 (if you see what I mean!).

It certainly made things alot clearer in our minds when we actually looked round the local schools. Will you get a chance to do this before making your decision?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:43 pm 
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The 11+ tests are certainly used to test future potential, in a very different way to that of the Sats. The Nfer Nelson test packs explain how these tests do this but it's basically about being able to acquire new concepts and understand new ideas across a range of subjects. To quote, it says 'this infomation gives an indication of a child's future academic potential'. However, I saw my son's teacher yesterday and was told he had achieved his target of all 5's, which I feel reassured by, as although he got a good 11+ pass, he was so well prepared by the time he took it, it's difficult to tell. However, with the Sats, apart from within school, he did no extra preparation for. In fact, they have had hardly any homework this year at all! He had disappointing levels at the end of Y4 though, so it's quite possible to make good progress by the end of Y6.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:47 pm 
I am glad I am not the only one having the same doubts.

My daughter is seeing a tutor who has predicted that she will acchieve between85% and 100% in her 11 plus, yet last night at her parents evening I was informed she was 3.5/3.8 for literacy depending on the genre,and 4.2 for maths.
Is this good enough if she gets to grammer?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:20 pm 
Potential and ability, are the same? We all have potential, but can we fulfil it with the ability, difficult.


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 Post subject: THE SMART TEST
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:33 pm 
I really do think that VR and NVR are significant in these 11+/entry tests. My son, although we have predicted a 5 in maths and science and a 4 in English(still waiting),got into his independent school because of the reasoning tests. These tests show how well the child is able to work things out. It does take a good brain to do this. I am studying towards a degree but can i figure out some of those reasoning questions? Not a chance! It takes a 'smart' brain to work some of those questions out. There are children out there who do get into Grammar/independent on a scholarship for,say music or art,but they would still have to be up on the reasoning. You can prep your children until you are blue in the face with the reasoning,but you will find most highly prepped kids, who are 'average' intelligence struggle at Grammar/independent schools. Sorry,but i really do believe this. VR and NVR are IQ tests. So all the parents out there who feel despondent about their babies only getting 4's in their SATS, then go on to pass 11+ tests....They ARE smart!! :D Watch someone challenge me on this one!!!!!!!! 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:21 am 
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Location: Gloucestershire
What grades did your child get at KS1 SATS?

Teachers have been known to underestimate a bright child. Sometimes the child works to the middle of the class so as not to bring attention. Some teachers concentrate on the less able in the class to bring them up to 'average' and ignore the brighter ones.

"Performs poorly in class but tests well" is a definite sign of an underachieving, bored child.

I would recommend putting him in for the 11+. Assuming he gets in, he will probably thrive working with intellectual piers. If he doesn't thrive or struggles, you can always move him to another school for Y8 or Y9. I know of children who do transfer from grammar to comp for a whole variety of reasons, so there's no stigma attached.

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 Post subject: Re: THE SMART TEST
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:40 am 
guest0001 wrote:
You can prep your children until you are blue in the face with the reasoning,but you will find most highly prepped kids, who are 'average' intelligence struggle at Grammar/independent schools. Sorry,but i really do believe this. VR and NVR are IQ tests. So all the parents out there who feel despondent about their babies only getting 4's in their SATS, then go on to pass 11+ tests....They ARE smart!! :D Watch someone challenge me on this one!!!!!!!! 8)


I think you are contradicting yourself here. On one hand you say that highly prepped kids of average intelligence can pass the 11+ (they would have to have passed it to be struggling at grammar school) and on the other hand you say that average children (Level 4 SATs) who pass the 11+ are smart.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:20 am 
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Location: Bexley
Wow! What a website!
I have gained more information about the educational system/SATS/11+ from this site than from my daughter's school!

Dilemma:
I have a daughter in year 4 but she has a late summer birthday so she is just a baby - bless! However, this means we seem to be playing a constant game of catch up with her level of school work!

I have not been happy for some time with the levels of achievement at the school for many of the children (the work is too easy) and since the summer have been doing extra work with my daughter. She works well in a one-to-one situation.

I think she is now working at a level 3b possibly 3a but the teacher says 2a. I think this is total rubbish as well as being well below average for her age.

Could anyone direct me towards a list of bullet points for assessing a child's level in literacy and numeracy?

As my child's mother I know her and what she is capable of. There is a confidence issue and what she does for me doesn't seem to be reflected in some schoolwork.

Before I am labelled by the school as an interferring, neurotic mother, I tested her VR and NVR for age 8-9 (bond) - she got 100% with no assistance from me! Somehow I know she would! I haven't tested age 9-10 yet but she has already picked up the books and can do the questions.

She also enjoys marking her sister's Latin and French homework (year 7 grammar school)! I have passed this info onto the school and there is little interest.

What's going on here?
Is it her age? Is she immature? I think she is bored and she has a tendency to be lazy. Is she switching off? I thought there could be a problem with her living in her sister's shadow but that does not seem to be the case. She is so sharp but at this rate she will leave primary school barely achieving level 4 yet her VR and NVR will be off the scale! I am so worried. Can anyone help?

Tracy :( :( :(


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:50 am 
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Location: Gloucestershire
Hi, Tracy,

Sounds like another case of 'bored child underachieving syndrome'.

You could consider an educational psychologist report, although you have to pay for them. It would at least give you pointers one way or another... So you might find out that your daughter is actually average, or well above average (which sounds more likely to me). Then you'll have evidence to go to take to the school.

We occasionally get presented with these reports at appeals. What surprises me is when the report says the child is actually quite average, yet we've been given it by proud parents as evidence of how bright the child is! Well, yes, it is evidence...

There's a child at my child's school who was always a really bright spark in Reception & Y1, with bright parents (not always a reliable indicator, but reasonable). She went to the USA for 3 years, has come back, and is now appearing quite average - the work in the US was boring, she was 1 year above yet still bored. The school are putting her in the middle set for everything as she's producing average work, yet she's easily capable of top set - she's just bored and working at the lower level of those around her - why bother working harder?

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