Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
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Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
I'm not sure we have information bout when in December it was ie. how close or otherwise to school holidays or how much notice they had ( could have applied for authorised absence a few days before needing to travel) or the risk associated with the operation etc. It is possible that the family didn't have much notice, that flights on school holidays were booked up - loads of info isn't available.
Therefore it is impossible to know if the request was reasonably turned down.
It is important that it doesn't turn into a race issue though. The fact the grandfather was in India is related to the ethnic origin of the family but many families of all race and religion have relatives overseas. In any such cases the family should be treated differently to one where a weekend visit is logistically possible but its not a question of race.
I think it's unfair to say that because the family haven't been together for 5 years it shows a lack of caring etc. It could simply be that they couldnt afford flights.
Without being strictly related to this case as we don't know all the facts, it does seem reasonable for the emotional and mental health of a child to be taken into consideration when authorising absence. If a child is unwell they can have time off so if its likely that being unable to visit a seriously ill relative could have a negative impact on their well being then that should be considered. I understand the disruption caused to classrooms and to the child's education but how to measure the long term impact of missing a few days at school against emotional development and sound mental health?
Therefore it is impossible to know if the request was reasonably turned down.
It is important that it doesn't turn into a race issue though. The fact the grandfather was in India is related to the ethnic origin of the family but many families of all race and religion have relatives overseas. In any such cases the family should be treated differently to one where a weekend visit is logistically possible but its not a question of race.
I think it's unfair to say that because the family haven't been together for 5 years it shows a lack of caring etc. It could simply be that they couldnt afford flights.
Without being strictly related to this case as we don't know all the facts, it does seem reasonable for the emotional and mental health of a child to be taken into consideration when authorising absence. If a child is unwell they can have time off so if its likely that being unable to visit a seriously ill relative could have a negative impact on their well being then that should be considered. I understand the disruption caused to classrooms and to the child's education but how to measure the long term impact of missing a few days at school against emotional development and sound mental health?
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kenyancowgirl
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Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
Quasi, just to be clear, because you seem to be misunderstanding, my comments about time off related to HOLIDAY not sickness.
The point had already been made further up this thread that we do not know exactly what the facts were in this case - it isn't clear in the article that the grandfather was or was not on death's door - it isn't clear if he has subsequently died; it isn't clear how late or not it was in December - but arguable, most schools finish mid December so it could be reasonable for the school to expect the family to delay for a week or so. Where there is serious illness or death then obviously a school is going to be accommodating, whether the family is Asian or not (and I still do not understand why you persist in emphasising ethnic origin in the majority of your posts...it appears that you have an agenda of sorts but I am not clear what it actually is?)
The point had already been made further up this thread that we do not know exactly what the facts were in this case - it isn't clear in the article that the grandfather was or was not on death's door - it isn't clear if he has subsequently died; it isn't clear how late or not it was in December - but arguable, most schools finish mid December so it could be reasonable for the school to expect the family to delay for a week or so. Where there is serious illness or death then obviously a school is going to be accommodating, whether the family is Asian or not (and I still do not understand why you persist in emphasising ethnic origin in the majority of your posts...it appears that you have an agenda of sorts but I am not clear what it actually is?)
Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
I wonder how parents who take their children out of school for holidays would deal with truancy? It must make the situation harder.
In my opinion it sends a message of lack of respect towards the school,teachers and education. When we work we could never have a holiday without taking annual leave.
In my experience parents never do it for UK holidays only to go abroad.
Sadly my children are in classes where five of their peers have lost parents in the last two years. Some were sudden and unexpected,others after long illnesses. All five children came back to school the day after and had either one or two days off for the funeral. I am not saying all children could do that but interestingly the three we know well all said it was great to have the normality of school at a difficult time.
School is where children should be in term time unless the situation is truly exceptional. That is where the difficulty lies. It is hard to agree on what exceptional actually is, but it's certainly not a cheaper holiday.
In my opinion it sends a message of lack of respect towards the school,teachers and education. When we work we could never have a holiday without taking annual leave.
In my experience parents never do it for UK holidays only to go abroad.
Sadly my children are in classes where five of their peers have lost parents in the last two years. Some were sudden and unexpected,others after long illnesses. All five children came back to school the day after and had either one or two days off for the funeral. I am not saying all children could do that but interestingly the three we know well all said it was great to have the normality of school at a difficult time.
School is where children should be in term time unless the situation is truly exceptional. That is where the difficulty lies. It is hard to agree on what exceptional actually is, but it's certainly not a cheaper holiday.
Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
Each case is different I guess which is why headteachers make the decision based on individual circumstances.
I agree that chaos we would ensue if parents just took children on holiday when it suited them but there will always be exceptions. Eg what if a parent or sibling is terminally ill and the only way the family can have what is likely to be their last holiday is by going in term time? I take the point that maintaining normality in difficult circumstances is usually beneficial for children but there is also the element of creating memories and the comfort of special times together.
Headteachers must have some difficult decisions to make.
I agree that chaos we would ensue if parents just took children on holiday when it suited them but there will always be exceptions. Eg what if a parent or sibling is terminally ill and the only way the family can have what is likely to be their last holiday is by going in term time? I take the point that maintaining normality in difficult circumstances is usually beneficial for children but there is also the element of creating memories and the comfort of special times together.
Headteachers must have some difficult decisions to make.
Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
Hi KB, whilst I can see there has been a lot of discussion about whether the illness justified the absence in this case, those of us against taking children out of school are talking solely about holidays, not special cases such as this might have been. Of course those would be exceptions!
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kenyancowgirl
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Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
Crossed with Yamin...
Read the thread properly KB...!!
I think everyone is saying where there is evidence of genuine terminal illness, EVERYONE supports a head to authorise absence, so in the case you describe above KB, no-one would disagree. The problem is where there is no clear evidence of illness, or it is "just" a holiday. The facts are not clear in the ORIGINAL post by quasimodo. There would be a whole lot more detail given to us about the illness, if the press had investigated properly - they may have done (but found nothing concrete) or may not have had time to but thought it was a good "race" story, to stir up debate. Quasi tells us that the family were of "small means"...so this implies that they couldn't afford to go in the actual holidays - this lends a question to how serious the illness was - if they had the money could they have waited? All of these factors may be known to the Head of the school in question - to not - but the head has to be absolute in how he implies the rules with the information to hand. And I know for a fact that County Councils do not go to court unless they are very positive of a winning outcome. The facts are clear in the hypothetical you describe!
Read the thread properly KB...!!
I think everyone is saying where there is evidence of genuine terminal illness, EVERYONE supports a head to authorise absence, so in the case you describe above KB, no-one would disagree. The problem is where there is no clear evidence of illness, or it is "just" a holiday. The facts are not clear in the ORIGINAL post by quasimodo. There would be a whole lot more detail given to us about the illness, if the press had investigated properly - they may have done (but found nothing concrete) or may not have had time to but thought it was a good "race" story, to stir up debate. Quasi tells us that the family were of "small means"...so this implies that they couldn't afford to go in the actual holidays - this lends a question to how serious the illness was - if they had the money could they have waited? All of these factors may be known to the Head of the school in question - to not - but the head has to be absolute in how he implies the rules with the information to hand. And I know for a fact that County Councils do not go to court unless they are very positive of a winning outcome. The facts are clear in the hypothetical you describe!
Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
I'm not sure that was justified kenyan. Time for me to take a break I think.
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kenyancowgirl
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Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
What is not justified, KB? Telling you to read the thread properly?! Your hypothetical had been addressed in various forms above, before you hypothesised it - nobody was disagreeing with you. If you found that not to be justified, apologies, but then maybe it is time to take a break...
Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
Kenyancowgirl I feel some of your comments have been unfair.Have you tried getting flights to and from India during the Xmas period ? Let alone the prices to be paid for a family of four.If someone is going to attend when a member of the family is having surgery you would want to be there before,during and after the surgery to support them.Have you been to hospitals there ? They vary from what's available to the average person which would make you cringe as you enter to those who have wealth and can access the very best healthcare and the very best hospitals.
I have had two pm's from Guest55 as to how somehow I am deliberately trolling on this issue and I am trying to stir up racial issues when none exist.All I am trying to put is a different perspective on issues where there is a large amount of discretion given to a headmaster in interpreting the regulations.
As to Councils going to court unless they are very positive of winning we don't know enough of the facts to come to any conclusion. Anyone with any experience of Council prosecutions wouldn't necessarily conclude the matter has been properly and carefully reviewed before a decision has been made to prosecute.
I have had two pm's from Guest55 as to how somehow I am deliberately trolling on this issue and I am trying to stir up racial issues when none exist.All I am trying to put is a different perspective on issues where there is a large amount of discretion given to a headmaster in interpreting the regulations.
As to Councils going to court unless they are very positive of winning we don't know enough of the facts to come to any conclusion. Anyone with any experience of Council prosecutions wouldn't necessarily conclude the matter has been properly and carefully reviewed before a decision has been made to prosecute.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Abraham Lincoln
Abraham Lincoln
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kenyancowgirl
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Re: Term time absence prosecution unfair ?
Flights to and from India at Christmas, no - but, being of Asian heritage, huge numbers of my family have. And yes, I have direct experience of getting to and from Kenya at all times of year - Christmas included - and I am more than aware of the cost of flights - the majority of my family live in India, the rest live in Africa. And I have spent my fair share of time being ill myself, or having family members treated, in Nairobi Hospital, as well as hospitals in three other countries in Eastern and Southern Africa...and then there was the Caribbean- not for holidays but to live. All of which are Third World Countries. I am very aware of the differences between rich and poor - that are more marked abroad but, frankly, exist in this country too - the difference being that here we have the NHS to pick up the pieces.
Councils do only go to court where their lawyers tell them they have an above average chance of winning - hence the number of planning approvals that go through as soon as the person who was initially declined the permission, appeals through the courts - most Councils can't afford to take the risk of losing as the money comes directly out of the public purse.
A number of your posts do include a race bias - this may be, (as you put it up thread), because your impressions "colour" the way you see things. But this is not a race issue - it doesn't matter if the grandfather is in India or the Shetland Isles - if the Head does not feel there was justification to allow authorised time off, they would not give it to any child in the school in these circumstances with that information.
Councils do only go to court where their lawyers tell them they have an above average chance of winning - hence the number of planning approvals that go through as soon as the person who was initially declined the permission, appeals through the courts - most Councils can't afford to take the risk of losing as the money comes directly out of the public purse.
A number of your posts do include a race bias - this may be, (as you put it up thread), because your impressions "colour" the way you see things. But this is not a race issue - it doesn't matter if the grandfather is in India or the Shetland Isles - if the Head does not feel there was justification to allow authorised time off, they would not give it to any child in the school in these circumstances with that information.
