Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union ?
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SunlampVexesEel
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Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
What you are referring to there is called "Replacement Migration", unfortunately for that to solve the demographic issue of an aging population would require huge numbers, massive pressure on limited resources and huge cultural change. I'm not happy with that. In particular I think house price inflation is a terrible legacy for our children, grand children etc. There was a UN paper on Replacement Migration which recognises that changes to retirement age, reduction of retirement age benefits and health care, labour force participation etc rather than just replacement migration is the necessary response.mystery wrote:.... It seems the data shows that on average they have more children than people who have been resident in this country for donkey's years. That's a good thing as countries with one child per family have huge financial problems as the population ages and there is only one worker supporting two elderly people.
The pressure on housing, schools, GPs, hospitals etc in our little corner of the South East is ridiculous. Anything that reduces that pressure is good by me.
Regards
SVE
Animis opibusque parati
Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
"That our government should have been maintained in its original form from its establishment until now is not much to be wondered at. It had many props to support it through that period, which now are decayed and crumbled away. Through that period, it was felt by all to be an undecided experiment; now, it is understood to be a successful one."
Abraham Lincoln
Vote to stay in!-Putin wants Europe to split, such short memories we have if you want reminding go ask the Ukrainians.
I could change my opinion by this time tomorrow.
Abraham Lincoln
Vote to stay in!-Putin wants Europe to split, such short memories we have if you want reminding go ask the Ukrainians.
I could change my opinion by this time tomorrow.
Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
Our closest GP surgery has recruitment problems and insufficient consulting rooms. I don't think staying or leaving Europe is going to make a difference particularly as we scarcely have any migrants around here!
Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
From the UN report quoted:
I think that this Government has shown its radical core of late and for me the main reason to stay in Europe lies in the checks and balances it provides. While its bureaucracy can be unwieldy and expensive and foist a lot of unwanted stuff on us, I am terrified of radical conservatism driving a coach and horses through every last vestige of community in this country. The schools are already being sold off - what would they do next? Scaremongering about migration seems to be the only strategy of the 'out' campaign; if they could demonstrate some feasible strategies for protecting the weak and disadvantaged as well as preventing the sell-off of just about every national asset then we might have a debate. I haven't seen any evidence of it yet.
That to me seems to support the case for substantial migration into low-fertility countries. As that isn't going to happen, we will see rapid ageing - and I don't see much evidence of a compassionate and visionary policy for dealing with that from any party, or any brinnit or brexit campaigners. It is a non-subject when it should be central to the debate.In contrast to the migration streams needed to offset total or working-age population decline, the levels of migration that would be needed to prevent the countries from ageing are of substantially larger magnitudes. By 2050, these larger migration flows would result in populations where the proportion of post-1995 migrants and their descendants would range between 59 per cent and 99 per cent.* Such high levels of migration have not been observed in the past for any of these countries or regions. Moreover, it seems extremely unlikely that such flows could happen in these countries in the foreseeable future. Therefore, it appears inevitable that the populations of the low-fertility countries will age rapidly in the twenty-first century.
I think that this Government has shown its radical core of late and for me the main reason to stay in Europe lies in the checks and balances it provides. While its bureaucracy can be unwieldy and expensive and foist a lot of unwanted stuff on us, I am terrified of radical conservatism driving a coach and horses through every last vestige of community in this country. The schools are already being sold off - what would they do next? Scaremongering about migration seems to be the only strategy of the 'out' campaign; if they could demonstrate some feasible strategies for protecting the weak and disadvantaged as well as preventing the sell-off of just about every national asset then we might have a debate. I haven't seen any evidence of it yet.
Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
I agree. If left to them they'll probably export the elderly. Some other type of Brexit. The Marigold hotel springs to mind. Actually, not a bad thing going abroad, but I'd like to make a choice.
Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
They may outsource them to the Chinese, like nuclear power. Hinkley Point Care Home - toasty warm all year round.salsa wrote:I agree. If left to them they'll probably export the elderly. Some other type of Brexit. The Marigold hotel springs to mind. Actually, not a bad thing going abroad, but I'd like to make a choice.
Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
I think I would outsource myself before that, as long as they let me come back for the old hip replacement or pacemaker. Or, would that make me an NHS tourists?
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Looking for help
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Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
I'm living in Belgium now, and I'd say that the feeling here now is that the EU is better off without Britain.
I will vote to stay though as I think it is an incredibly insular and potentially disastrous economic plan to leave. There will be a minimum of 10 years of legal wrangles and uncertainty before stability will return. Immigration being used as a reason to leave is purely veiled racism, I think, and as somebody said upthread, any issues regarding security are more to do with youth radicalisation, which needs to be addressed whether we are in or out of Europe.
I read somewhere that currently as a member of the EU we are given the details of who is moving across the borders of all European countries, but that information will be lost should we vote to leave. This might be much more worrying from a national security point of view.
Amber, I loved your birds post
I will vote to stay though as I think it is an incredibly insular and potentially disastrous economic plan to leave. There will be a minimum of 10 years of legal wrangles and uncertainty before stability will return. Immigration being used as a reason to leave is purely veiled racism, I think, and as somebody said upthread, any issues regarding security are more to do with youth radicalisation, which needs to be addressed whether we are in or out of Europe.
I read somewhere that currently as a member of the EU we are given the details of who is moving across the borders of all European countries, but that information will be lost should we vote to leave. This might be much more worrying from a national security point of view.
Amber, I loved your birds post
Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
I agree.
About the birds, they are lucky they have freedom of movement.
A few years ago, I took my children to a migratory bird sanctuary where birds would go to escape the northern hemisphere winter. The guide told us that there were some that had stayed for good. My children had two questions:
- Why wouldn't all birds stay in the lovely warm weather?
- How did the local birds react with the migrated birds?
Good questions, I thought. It's difficult to think why they would fly thousands of kilometres to go back home.
Recently, I heard about what is happening to storks in Portugal and Spain. They used to be migratory birds which went to Africa for the winter and went back for the spring/summer. As, apparently this is when most people were born, this behaviour gave rise to the myth/tale of babies being brought by a stork. These birds are now eating from the mountains of rubbish used for landfill and staying all year round. As the Portuguese government have decided to cover all landfill sites there is uncertainty as to whether the birds will remember to migrate or not.
We all come from Africa, some of us stayed, some of us still move around.
About the birds, they are lucky they have freedom of movement.
A few years ago, I took my children to a migratory bird sanctuary where birds would go to escape the northern hemisphere winter. The guide told us that there were some that had stayed for good. My children had two questions:
- Why wouldn't all birds stay in the lovely warm weather?
- How did the local birds react with the migrated birds?
Good questions, I thought. It's difficult to think why they would fly thousands of kilometres to go back home.
Recently, I heard about what is happening to storks in Portugal and Spain. They used to be migratory birds which went to Africa for the winter and went back for the spring/summer. As, apparently this is when most people were born, this behaviour gave rise to the myth/tale of babies being brought by a stork. These birds are now eating from the mountains of rubbish used for landfill and staying all year round. As the Portuguese government have decided to cover all landfill sites there is uncertainty as to whether the birds will remember to migrate or not.
We all come from Africa, some of us stayed, some of us still move around.
Re: Should Britain vote to remain or exit the European Union
Sorry not as informed on this as I would like to be. I don't know the source (anyone help out) but there has supposedly been a piece of research done putting togehter all the various opinion polls so far which shows that overwhelmingly it is over 50s who are more likely to favour exit and younger ones who favor "stay". In general though, over 50s have a higher turnout on polling day than younger ones .... so there's a real possibility that this could result in an exit vote unless a higher proporition of younger ones than usual get themselves down the polling station. Does this sound right from everything you better informed people have read?
My overwhelming reasons for "stay" are very similar to yours Amber. The EU has laudable aims, whatever its actual outworkings, and I hope that a collective group of European nations would prevent anything really outrageous taking place within a member state and have a moderating influence on policy making at member state level.
I can imagine interest in this is rising in the UK:
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Another irritation is how EU law and regulations are often falsely blamed or quoted for problems at member state level. e.g. the recent floods in Cumbria are oft-quoted as being due to the management of rivers etc as regulated by the EU preventing needed dredging, widening, banking etc of rivers. The EU regs are not worded in this way. Maybe more of this mis-information is taking place in the run up to the referendum but it is hard for anyone to be both well informed and accurately informed without doing the equivalent of their own PhD thesis firsthand on the EU.
My overwhelming reasons for "stay" are very similar to yours Amber. The EU has laudable aims, whatever its actual outworkings, and I hope that a collective group of European nations would prevent anything really outrageous taking place within a member state and have a moderating influence on policy making at member state level.
I can imagine interest in this is rising in the UK:
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Another irritation is how EU law and regulations are often falsely blamed or quoted for problems at member state level. e.g. the recent floods in Cumbria are oft-quoted as being due to the management of rivers etc as regulated by the EU preventing needed dredging, widening, banking etc of rivers. The EU regs are not worded in this way. Maybe more of this mis-information is taking place in the run up to the referendum but it is hard for anyone to be both well informed and accurately informed without doing the equivalent of their own PhD thesis firsthand on the EU.
