CATs Testing?

[scary mum]

It always interests me that it is considered that CATs are not "tutorable" compared to the 11plus. If there is such as "untutorable" or "unpracticable" then why aren't they used to select children for grammar schools? Not advocating that they should be, just curious. I was never aware of when mine were sitting them, but I do remember DD failing the 11 plus (VR) but then in year 7 scoring 141 in her VR CAT, so the two don't necessarily match up.

[JamesDean]

My school sets early in yr 7 using Cats - we are large, fully comp with children coming from many primary schools. It's quick and it's dirty but, like Olliesmum says, when you're dealing with 300 odd kids it needs to be! However, once the dust settles there is lots of movement and no one is stuck where they are if they need moving up (or down).

GS have the advantage that the children have already been 'set' by the 11+ ...

JD

[Olliesmum]

Hi, as JamesDean says, I don't think my school is in the minority these days. The ONLY thing we use the CATs data for in year 7 - is to put them into sets appropriate to their ability. I receive a new class list in September with pupil names, DOB's, SATs level from KS2 and CATs score. Based on the two scores - they will be put into sets 1-5.
As JamesDean says - there is movement after the first few weeks/term. However... in real life, if there are 7 or 8 pupils misplaced and needing to move up a set - there isn't necessarily 38 places in that class! (Some are made to stay in set 2 or 3, just due to numbers!)
hence... my wish that my ds does well in the first place, securing a place in the top set.
I don't think we are 'preparing him' exactly, we are just doing a few NVR/VR exercises - to remind him how they work?

[Guest55]

Why would you want him in the wrong set?

There is no need to practise - and in the areas of the country I have worked in CATs test are not used like this. The people who develop them would be horrified as they say they are best used to compare cohorts.

There are other data sets e.g, KS2 test scores, FFT probabilities that have a better 'record' for predicting future grades.

I'm not sure why you are asking for opinions if you are going to tutor him for them anyway.

[booellesmum]

DD's are at a GS that does CAT's in year 7 to help predict Gcse grades. They were not used to put them in sets.
The comprehensive they would've gone to does not do CATs and sets children based on SAT scores with movement afterwards possible.
I did not tutor for the CATs but thought it interesting that DD1 felt she had done ok due to our accidental GL paper practising pre 11+ - their GS exam is CEM!
DD2 had no such advantage so it would be interesting to see what the difference is.
I personally would not have an issue with tutoring if you are concerned about how your school sets the children - after all most people tutor for 11+ when we are told not to.

[Olliesmum]

Yes, ok. Rather than annoying people further, I will now just try to explain myself. I was asking I suppose, to see if people do prepare their children for such an important test. In my area (Trafford) the score along with the KS2 Sats results are recorded and sent to the high school for their records. At my school, this data is still on our database right up to year 11. GCSE targets are set from this data/KS3 SATs (our own version) etc. I have a yr 11 pupil in my class with a target GCSE grade 'D'. Her target is low because her CAT mean SAS was 93, with a KS3 level of 4C. (Expectations are low therefore, if you achieve a low CAT score...)

I don't want my ds to land in the lower sets of a high school because I am teaching 'there' everyday. I understand that less able students need to work at a slower pace and will take longer to understand new concepts. I would be concerned - because of my first hand knowledge -if my own ds was in this group. I don't think he will be, as he was in the top group at Primary school and failed the 11+ by only 8 marks. I am just concerned that something will affect him on the morning of the CATs...

[Guest55]

Surely a target is just that - a target - and no level 4 child should have a target of D anyway - they won't make expected progress of three levels.

Targets should never be seen as a 'cap' on the grade a student can achieve ...

[Eccentric]

Yes, ok. Rather than annoying people further, I will now just try to explain myself. I was asking I suppose, to see if people do prepare their children for such an important test. In my area (Trafford) the score along with the KS2 Sats results are recorded and sent to the high school for their records. At my school, this data is still on our database right up to year 11. GCSE targets are set from this data/KS3 SATs (our own version) etc. I have a yr 11 pupil in my class with a target GCSE grade 'D'. Her target is low because her CAT mean SAS was 93, with a KS3 level of 4C. (Expectations are low therefore, if you achieve a low CAT score...)

I don't want my ds to land in the lower sets of a high school because I am teaching 'there' everyday. I understand that less able students need to work at a slower pace and will take longer to understand new concepts. I would be concerned - because of my first hand knowledge -if my own ds was in this group. I don't think he will be, as he was in the top group at Primary school and failed the 11+ by only 8 marks. I am just concerned that something will affect him on the morning of the CATs...

Hi Ollies Mum,
Whilst I agree with others that there is not a lot of point in revising for CATs I would absolutely back you up in regards to some schools taking the results and having expectations of young people based ontheir score. My Dd has been given predicted end of year levels for this year and next based on her CAT scores which could (luckily doesn't) put her under a lot of pressure if she wasn't reaching them. At her last school she had a most able label as a result of her CAT scores which supposedly (they never materialised) gave her access to special lessons out of class, and a tutor to help her to achieve her potential. The reality was that none of this happened.
My dd failed the 11+ because she was anxious and I am sure that she has been able to show her ability in CAT tests twice in two schools ( her scores were identical) because she thought the CAT was insignificant and didn't matter because she knew which school that she was going to in both cases. I told her that it was just a way for the teachers to see how they could best teach her. I hear what you are saying about this not being the case at your school but it would probably be best for son if he thought this. You may find that he excels despite not passing the 11+ If you prep him for the test it will take on significance.

I do think it is wrong of some schools to put so much store in CATs there was a girl in my daughters primary who was absolutely bottom of the class I. Everything and completely unmotivated, she got a most able CAT and just being told that she is turned things around for her at secondary and she is now doing really well but I am sure that the reverse is true too. A child who has done well may not do so if they are told they have low CAT scores. My daughter is under pressure to achieve A*s because of her CAT and I am not sure that is a good hing either.