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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:33 am 
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OK, I am fully aware that many people do not approve of a selective system in school ( wink to dear Amber).
Personally, because of what I have seen in a state primary school in a leafy middle-class suburb in England, I am all for them and do find that a lift on the ban of them is positive. Imho, it is better than being hypocritical and opening annexes, as has been done under Cameron’s government!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... r-schools/

Apparently, she will face stiff opposition:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... r-schools/

Oh, and on Michael Rosen facebook page yesterday, there was a mistake: it is not true that more money goes to selective schools as schools in poorer areas get more funding ( his point 2 is: Worldwide there is evidence to suggest that whenever you run a selective system, money and qualifications follows the selective schools. More money and better qualified teachers go to the selective schools. This is discrimination.) This is discrimination!

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:57 pm 
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JaneEyre wrote:
OK, I am fully aware that many people do not approve of a selective system in school ( wink to dear Amber).
Winking back from Switzerland (it is all I can afford to do here).

JE, as far as I am concerned our country has now gone to the dogs; I knew once Brexit was chosen that we would be subject to at least a decade, probably more, of unopposed extreme right wing government. :cry: That will lead to the privileging of many agendas which to me are unpalatable, and selective education, which only ever appeals as a policy to the right wing, is just one of them. For me that will be a bit of a deal breaker - the social justice and equality implications of it are very upsetting to me and I do not want to live in a society which is going to promote that. I certainly hope that if any of my children chooses to have a family they won't bring them up somewhere which still thinks there is merit in this idea.

I am planning my escape: I won't want to stay British for much longer I don't think - I just hope somewhere else will have me! :|


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:03 pm 
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I didn't vote for Brexit but I think now the choice has been made we have to be positive and find a way to make it work; it could be a good thing. Theresa May seems (hopefully) as strong a leader as Margaret Thatcher and I don't think that is a bad thing. We have had many years with wishy-washy governments and it is about time someone actually made some decisions. I for one think that Grammar schools are a good thing and were/are an aid to social mobility (why did Labour decide that we could select on how well you could kick a football but not on how well you could use your brain). I can't believe I am the only person on this (11+) site that believes in academic selection.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:05 pm 
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Well as someone who lives in, I think, the only fully selective county - we have no comprehensives and the 11+ is opt out I really don't think grammar schools bring social mobility anymore! I think they are a very middle class preserve - I know of many bright children who don't see grammars as "their kind of place" and the grammars are for many an alternative to private. And yes as someone with both kids in a sought after grammar I'm well aware how hypocritical I sound :D

As an aside is it purely coincidental that Theresa May is MP for Maidenhead - a town that has been very actively trying to gain an annex from SWBGS for sometime?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:11 pm 
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Location: Solihull, West Midlands
Yes people who want "more grammar schools" don't usually want "more secondary moderns" - especially if their children/grandchildren seem likely to end up there...

It seems to me that now compulsory education /training lasts until 18 there is a strong case for introducing more different routes at 14 rather than 11, as is happening in a few places with the UTCs (?) but I fear it won't happen in time for my (as yet unconceived) grandchildren....


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:48 pm 
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As my name suggests, I was born and bred in Bucks; I was surprised when I found out in my 20's/30's that the 11+ wasn't standard! When I took the test (actually 12+ for me) there was no shame in failing, no gloating at passing; the test just decided what school you went to (remember in those days there was no choice of schools other than that) and the local schools were good and my sister achieved highly in her secondary/comprehensive.

But something changed along the way to make Grammar schools better than secondary schools in selective regions. IMO the change started when parents were given more choice of where to send their children to school, combined with school closures due to reduced numbers. Something went wrong and needs fixing and I think if every area becomes selective then there will be less pressure on the school system and no need for this website maybe :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:35 am 
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Most of this country has a comprehensive system and does fine. To impose a broken, damaging model on everyone else just because it isn't working in a few leafy counties seems madness to me!

Better to scrap them all imho, but then I'm not standing for election in said leafy counties ...

JD


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:35 am 
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BucksBornNBred wrote:
I for one think that Grammar schools are a good thing and were/are an aid to social mobility (why did Labour decide that we could select on how well you could kick a football but not on how well you could use your brain). I can't believe I am the only person on this (11+) site that believes in academic selection.

No, you are not alone. High five! :wink:
In fact, if academic selection does not happen at 11, it happens later anyway. I come from a country where there is no academic selection at 11, but there is a tough system after the Baccalaureat. Unfortunately, because of that particular system, some students may find themselves with no diplomas after trying twice medicine and then twice pharmacy: thus, at 22 year-old, after four attempts at competitive examinations , they have to start their undergraduate studies. How fair is that? Wouldn't an earlier selection be more appropriate?

A selective system exist in Germany with the gymnasiums. It might exist in some other countries, I am not enough documented on that issue.

JamesDean wrote:
To impose a broken, damaging model on everyone else just because it isn't working in a few leafy counties seems madness to me! JD

Who said that, in term of social mobility, GS are not working? When I see certain posts on the Birmingham thread ( of parents concerned by the ethnicity of certain pupils in certain GS. And I have to say this is a discussion I do not want to open as it makes my stomach completely knotted), I am under the impression that they do work, though they also cater for many children of parents having high-paid career, who may prefer for their children to be mixed with children coming from many walks of life! As the KE foundation in Birmingham puts it, ‘All of our schools take children from a variety of ethnic, faith and socio-economic backgrounds and it is one of the great strengths of our schools that there are no social issues whatsoever.’ Sad that I have no access to some data to give it as proof! Maybe Petitpois can help for that if this data is in the public domain?
Imho, it was rather a mistake to close many GS in the seventies! :(


If the first purpose of GS was to permit social mobility and it has appeared that the ‘up escalator’ is no more functioning as it should, some people with a vision try to ‘fix’ this issue with the introduction of the Pupil Premium (linked with a familiarisation programme and outreach work with primary schools ) as you can read on this webpage of the KE foundation in the ‘leafy county’ situated in the midde of England :wink: :
http://www.schoolsofkingedwardvi.co.uk/ ... licy-faqs/

***
Just a few exerpts here for those who have no time to read the whole of it:

last part of A1: More recently we have all been challenged to address the social mobility of children in education and the Government has urged selective schools (grammar schools) to increase the number of children in our schools who come from less privileged backgrounds.

Q5. Will this mean that if you are poor you won’t have to score as high in the 11+ admission tests?
A. That is essentially correct – up to 20% of places (25% at Aston) are set aside for pupil premium children who achieve “a qualifying score”. This qualifying score will be set before the test in September after we have reviewed data in order to ensure that children who achieve the score can flourish in our schools.

Q14. Will this create a two-tiered system of pupils in your school?
A. No. Definitely not. We have evidence of children across all of our schools who continue to amaze us with their achievements who come from an extremely diverse range of backgrounds. We know our pupils and will, discreetly and professionally, ensure that no child is excluded from accessing any part of our curriculum offer by reason of their financial circumstances. We already do this very effectively.








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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:49 am 
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JD, do you really think that the comprehensive system is doing 'fine'? I think the state system in this country is an absolute shambles. If it wasn't then the MPs who keep making the changes and making the jobs of the overworked teachers impossible, would not be sending their children into private schools.

I am unable to afford to send my children to private primary schools and the same would be the case with their secondary education. Also, I wish it were the case that a state school could support their education and push them to their potential. Every child has the right to a good education and all schools should be equal. Unfortunately, as this is not the case, I am hoping they do pass their 11plus.

They attend a primary which is performing really well at ks1 and ks2. However, the curriculum will not allow for their teachers to teach beyond what the government allows for their particular year group. Meanwhile, the children of the MPs are not subject to the same rules in their private schools.

I am not sure if the solution is to build more grammar schools or to fix the state system, ensuring every child has as many opportunities to succeed for a long as possible. (Assuming it is in the interest of those who call the shots to 'fix' things.) And success is not necessarily a measure of exam grades but rather meeting a potential and having an outlook that will ensure you have enough skills to 'survive' in adulthood. However, since that will not be the case for the forseeable future, I am thankful for the existence of grammar schools whilst I am responsible for seeing my own children through their education.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:54 am 
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Enjoyingthejourney wrote:
JD, do you really think that the comprehensive system is doing 'fine'? I think the state system in this country is an absolute shambles. If it wasn't then the MPs who keep making the changes and making the jobs of the overworked teachers impossible ...

Yes, I do. While I agree with you that the system is in a shambles, the vast majority of children in this country do not attend grammar or independent schools and still some how manage to achieve well and attend good universities (if that is their aim).

This forum is a bubble of self-selecting people with a certain agenda and does not represent the population as a whole. Why I am here? A question I'm increasingly asking myself ...

JD


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