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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:40 am 
I read somewhere on the forum that borderline passes were the pupils who benefitted most from a grammar school education. Has any one (or any school) carried out research to see if there is a corelation between 11+ score and GCSE results?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:52 pm 
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I haven't done any research but from my experience of teaching in a Grammar school for a number of years I would say there is very low correlation in the schools I've worked in. The KS2 NC tests were a better prediction plus the added factor of how hard working and motivated the pupil was!

We did track those with VR 135+ for a few years but gave up as this did not seem to be of any value!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:41 pm 
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Here's the research about the 'impact of selection on pupil performance' if you are interested.
http://www.nfer.ac.uk/publications/othe ... agen01.PDF

Guest55 wrote:
The KS2 NC tests were a better prediction plus the added factor of how hard working and motivated the pupil was!

This is interesting, and tend to reinforce my views [I shoud say present views] that intelligence tests [VR/NVR] that can be practiced are a contradiction in themselves, and should be replaced by an assessment of school work.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:30 pm 
I have just scanned the research, Catherine, and found it really interesting. There is often an argument that a borderline child is better off being top of a comprehensive class, rather than 'struggling' in a grammar school. This research finds that the opposite is true - an average to above average student does better in a grammar school due to higher expectations and the effects of peer group.

Guest 55, your comments are also interesting - when my son met his new headteacher, I noticed that the Head had a note of my son's 11+ scores (I'm very adept at reading upside down!), so presumed these will be shared with class teachers. As my son's score was just 2 points above the pass mark, I was/am a little concerned this might mean lower expectations of his performance. Hopefully his new grammar, like yours, will actually not take too much notice. We'll see!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:46 pm 
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Yes - the 11+ VR will be on Y7 class lists plus the KS2 levels - the VR score is usually quickly forgotten by most teachers ... it is not used for target setting in any school I know.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:42 pm 
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[quote="Waddle"]I have just scanned the research, Catherine, and found it really interesting. There is often an argument that a borderline child is better off being top of a comprehensive class, rather than 'struggling' in a grammar school. This research finds that the opposite is true - an average to above average student does better in a grammar school due to higher expectations and the effects of peer group.
quote]

Although remember that the "average" or "borderline" child may not be top of a "proper" comprehensive, ie in an area with no local grammars the top sets in the local comp could have enough very bright children to provide the same peer group effect. There was another paper (from the Specialist Schools trust I think) which demonstrated this effect. I have to agree that in a fully selective area the evidence seems to be in favour (on average) of squeezing that borderline child in - pity they can't all get in of course.....


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:24 pm 
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Waddle wrote:
As my son's score was just 2 points above the pass mark, I was/am a little concerned this might mean lower expectations of his performance. Hopefully his new grammar, like yours, will actually not take too much notice. We'll see!


I wouldn't worry, Waddle. SG mentioned at some opint that they don't take the 11+ results into consideration for targets because they are aware that pupils are coached inequally. They use a mix of KS2 results,IQ type tests and internal assessment, and adjust the targets regularly. I wouldn't think that Herschel is much different.


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