behaviour in year 7

KenR · Post by **KenR** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:54 am

I'm not sure I agree with the point implied by Guest55 that passing the 11+ exam give a child the automatic right to be educated at a particular grammar school.

Although I don't think this is an issue in this case with Tourettes, there are some circumstances, where the safety and health of the majority may be compromised where this shouldn't be an automatic right. In these situations a special education approach may be preferable for all parties rather an inclusive grammar route.

The sort of situation I'm thinking of here is where a child is prone to attacks extreme physical violence which could put other children in the class at risk.

Marylou · Post by **Marylou** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:03 am

KenR wrote: The sort of situation I'm thinking of here is where a child is prone to attacks extreme physical violence which could put other children in the class at risk.

Ken - this is kind of what I was getting at when I posed the question earlier - at what point does bad behaviour (whatever the cause) start to be against the interests of the other children? Inclusion should certainly be the aim and should be attempted wherever possible, but cannot always be the solution in extreme circumstances. I know of one case in a primary school a few years ago in which a child who was prone to violent outbursts eventually had to leave, despite the best efforts of everyone to cater for his needs. It simply was not possible, in a small village school, to deal with the frequent disruptions. A great many resources were being diverted to one individual, and the education of the other children was being adversely affected. The school deals extremely well with most SENs, but the nature of this particular case simply put too great a strain on everyone - staff and pupils alike. Many children tried to be supportive and friendly towards this particular child, but ended up fearful of him after the first few incidents.

The child concerned moved to a special school that specializes in helping children with severe behavioural problems, where he responded well to being taught individually and in small groups by staff who had the training and experience to deal with his particular problems and were able to devote the time needed to helping him.

In the case described by Magwich, I think it is possible that the situation will improve as Tourettes is exacerbated by stress (according to the website Sally-Anne quoted earlier) and, as Guest55 pointed out, the boy is probably under quite a lot of stress at the moment! The other issue here is that this child has qualified for a grammar school - a special school possibly would not cater for his academic needs, despite dealing very well with the issues arising from his condition. Whatever the outcome, the child is still entitled to be educated at a level appropriate to his ability.

So - IMO - whilst every attempt should be made to achieve inclusion, it should be realized that it is not possible in every case. In which case steps should be taken to educate the individual by some other means, but always taking the child's academic ability into account.

Guest55 · Post by **Guest55** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:26 pm

KenR - do you know of a Special school that can cope with a child qualified for GS? I don't -

There is no reason why a child with Tourette's cannot be accommodated in a GS

Snowdrops · Post by **Snowdrops** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:54 pm

The problem with designating 'problem' children to a special school (and I refer here to the physically violent children, NOT the children with other special needs as I don't see (generally) a need to seclude them away in special schools) is that they're still violent in that school. This then puts the other 'special' children in fear too.

It's a catch 22 situation whatever you do. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Guest55 · Post by **Guest55** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:03 pm

There are special schools designated for children with behaviour problems -e.g. physically violent - these schools would be appropriate for some children as they have lots of small classes.

T.i.p.s.y · Post by **T.i.p.s.y** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:46 pm

Back to Tourettes - I think they should be allowed in GS and children hear worse from the internet and the unmonitored TV they watch!

Sam's Mum · Post by **Sam's Mum** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:13 pm

The "ticks" associated with Tourettes vary in nature and severity from one individual to another and over periods of time. They often improve with age. Vocal outbursts of obscenities is a fairly uncommon symptom. Just understanding and acceptance from other people may well reduce the "ticking".

I have found that children can be remarkably accepting and supportive when given appropriate information. The attitudes of teachers and parents will also go a long way to forming the other children's opinions and subsequent treatment of this child.

If this boy did not attend this grammar school where would he go? Surely you would just be moving the problem somewhere else. Special schools are clearly inappropriate as they just don't cater for this kind of condition or level of academic ability.

With appropriate support I see no reason why he should not be at this school.

KenR · Post by **KenR** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:32 pm

Guest55

If you read my posting again you will see that I don't disagree with your position that there is no reason why a child with Tourette's cannot be accommodated in a GS.

What I did struggle with was an earlier posting that seemed to suggest that every child that passes an 11+ grammar exam had an automatic right to attend that school. I disagree with that position.

My stance would be to qualify that statement with the proviso that states "so long as they don't pose a material threat to the health & safety of other children in the school"

Ken

Guest55 · Post by **Guest55** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:40 pm

I said that THAT child had a right to be there-

Any child that qualifies DOES have a right to attend their school of choice on day one - obviously if they then break school rules in a way that risks the health and safety of others e.g. dealing drugs, beating people up they can't stay there.

We are not talking about this situation here though we are talking about prejudice because of a special need - quite a different matter.

Burneth · Post by **Burneth** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:55 am

T.i.p.s.y wrote:Back to Tourettes - I think they should be allowed in GS and children hear worse from the internet and the unmonitored TV they watch!

I agree. I think it is up to the School to ensure a smooth transition for all the children..

Perhaps not comparable but I remember Pete from "Big Brother"...my DS was perhaps 9 or 10 at the time but was fasinated by his condition and after explaining why he acted the way he did, totally accepted the way he was and loved him!

My point is, children cannot be sheltered forever - and being exposed to a situation can bring understanding and acceptance.