making a castle

magwich2 · Post by **magwich2** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:29 am

>> Are you saying that to have better engineers then we need a more academic and less practical education?

I'm saying several things! The main one is that there's no point patronising children and telling them to stick bits of cardboard together when it does not fulfil any obvious educational purpose.

The second point is that while "hands-on" activities are valuable to develop pupils interests in technical matters, in practice I have never seen anything sufficiently technical happening. If it doesn't achieve anything it might as well not happen.

So yes, I'm saying it should be more academic - and that some properly thought-out practical work could back this up and make science and engineering a more popular A-level and degree choice.

>>it's called deconstruction.
Good, if it happens, but my DDs have never actually learnt anything in D&T.

>>ACADEMIC and PRACTICAl skills - neither is superior
Oh yes they are. An academic can learn practical skills - probably not the other way around.

Guest55 · Post by **Guest55** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:09 am

If you look at a DT syllabus you will see that there is a lot of academic knowledge e.g. which types of material are best in various situations. Types of construction, joints and their strength

I know a number of academics that do not have a practical bone in their bodies ...

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:30 am

Guest55 wrote: I know a number of academics that do not have a practical bone in their bodies ...

I see you've met my brother then - a more educated chap you couldn't find (more "proper" O levels and A levels than you could shake a stick at, 1st class degree, PhD), but ask him to actually do something and you'd be better off asking a 5 year old

Snowdrops · Post by **Snowdrops** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:53 am

andyb wrote:
Guest55 wrote: I know a number of academics that do not have a practical bone in their bodies ...
I see you've met my brother then - a more educated chap you couldn't find (more "proper" O levels and A levels than you could shake a stick at, 1st class degree, PhD), but ask him to actually do something and you'd be better off asking a 5 year old

This is my OH to a 'T' (which stands for totally useless

).

He cannot even change a plug for crying out loud!!

Milla · Post by **Milla** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:29 pm

We must be occupying parallel planes. I thought magwich made total sense (in any case, wasn't it her husband who was supplying the nuts and bolts of the long post regarding a useful practical education, concurrent with the academic)? Health and safety and presumed dumbing down has stripped much of the rigour in applied education and we are left with the fallout of constructing wonders of the world from loo roll innards. It's like deciding that ovens are nasty and dangerous so let's reduce Cookery (or whatever they call it now) to Crisp Packet Opening (careful with those scissors now).

Surely we are all basically on the same side here in wanting a valid education for our children in what hindsight tells us is quite a short span of years.

My horror at the parthenon/cell/sydney opera house/castle homework stemmed from an ability to see its point, yet still it was a time-heavy demand during a well-earned couple of weeks off. The need to do it sat there poisoning the atmosphere. The other mothers at school agreed. We took comfort in eye rolling.

There seemed little intrinsic value in bad-tempered application of cocktail sticks to modelling clay (palisaded steps), of grubby glue moments posing roofs on stumpy blocks (outbuildings). He'd already done "the essay" on motte and bailey castles, art homework comes back weekly, satisfying artistic urges. This plugged no gaps.

I told the history teacher that it had been a pain in the neck. He chortled in delight. No PVA spills for him over Easter.

Maybe, in true Mr and Mrs fashion, we can just accept that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Y · Post by Y » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:34 pm

Milla wrote: My horror at the parthenon/cell/sydney opera house/castle homework stemmed from an ability to see its point, yet still it was a time-heavy demand during a well-earned couple of weeks off. The need to do it sat there poisoning the atmosphere. The other mothers at school agreed. We took comfort in eye rolling.

I'm with you on this one. If it's worth doing, then it's worth doing in school under the supervision of a teacher, and not the long-suffering parent.

So far in tech, my DD has announced that she learnt 'nothing' in Resistant Materials, 'nothing' in Product Design, and she doesn't seem to have been taught any hand stitching in Textiles. Everything she learnt in Food Tech, I taught her at home the weekend before each practical lesson in school. Why haven't they taught her how to use a drill, and put up a shelf? And all she got from a term trying to make a 'moisture tester' was the cardboard packaging.

serialtester · Post by **serialtester** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:07 am

Well, my daughter thoroughly enjoyed making a 'buzz wire' game in tech this year - no doubt such an activity would be too easy for the Magwitch family... And for science one of the homeworks (in september IIRC) was to make a model of a cell. Again, very enjoyable and reinforced the concept that cells are 3D structures and not flat line drawings in text books.

I'm a bit worried about the 'sending her to GS to mix with middle class people etc' thing - we're proper working class here!!! I hope that poor Magwitch and her kids don't have to encounter my working class children at university.

dayn · Post by **dayn** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 pm

Magwich, if your daughters school is so bad, then why dont you home tutor her and free up the space for a child who would appreciate the place?
Your posts sometimes dont really ring true, are you a wind up?!!

magwich2 · Post by **magwich2** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:40 pm

I have read your post, dayn and I find it rude and ignorant.
I am quite happy with the grammar school my DD2 attends and she well deserves her place, having come joint 6th in the 11+ exam.
This does not, however, mean that I have no right to criticise any aspect of the school.
In any case if you took the trouble to read my posts you would appreciate that I am usually furious about the **** edited by Moderator government and/or political correctness rather than the school itself.
Iam certainly not a "wind up" and I am more than happy to debate issues on this forum where freedom of speech does seem a difficult concept to some members at times.
Perhaps you could avoid getting personal and just put your point of view in future? Thank you
Magwich and Miss Magwich and Tattycoram

Post edited by Moderator for unnecessarily controversial and potentially provocative wording.

serialtester · Post by **serialtester** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:42 pm

You got quite personal with me t'other week - lambasting my parenting just because my daughter enjoyed making fruit salad/apple crumble in food tech.

You've stated a few times (as has MsM) that school's a waste of time etc - so why bother sending them? It's a valid question IMHO.