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 Post subject: NFER non verbal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:53 pm
Posts: 139
Location: wolverhampton
My husband and I attempted the first section of the first NFER paper attempting the 12 questions in the 6 minutes allowed. He scored 6/12 and I scored 5/12. When my daughter tried the first section of the test she scored 6/12 in 10 minutes. She again scored 6/12 for the second section. We both (she and I) did better on the last 3 sections of the test (9,12,9)

My questions are

1)Has anyone else found the NFER papers as difficult as we have? (I was disturbed to read on this forum that some papers are more difficult than NFER)

2) Does my daughter need to substantially improve her score to have a chance of passing?

3) Is she allowed 10 minutes or only 6 minutes to do these tests? I have read the other comments about this on the forum but am still confused.

Thanks
Resmum

Resmum


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:47 pm
Posts: 1348
Location: Berks,Bucks
We definetely found the NFER papers difficult, even my husband who loves puzzles.
The score that your daughter needs depends on which school you are applying to, and can vary between 75% to 90%.
I wouldn't worry too much about her first results. With some regular practice, they will improve. How long has she got before the exam?
My son sat the test last year for Slough. The format was identical to the format of the NFER-Nelson papers: 4mns for the practice questions, 6mns for the 12 test questions. I have been told that they can see the first test questions during the practice, so that they can try to work them out before the proper test starts. This needs to be verified. My son does not remember.


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 Post subject: NVER
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:53 pm
Posts: 139
Location: wolverhampton
Thanks for the info.
She has 2 months to go before the first exam in November. I can see we have a bit of work to do, particulary if they are only allowed 6 minutes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:28 pm 
Hi,

As with many things you will all find that you get better with practice and with a method of tackling the questions. I would recommend starting with a "How To" book eg Bond: How to do non-verbal reasoning. It gives a handy acrostic to help you remember what you are looking for. The examples are very easy but they establish a method of tackling the questions which helps when they are more complex. I never completely mastered NV but my son was eventually, and fairly quickly, able to do most of them. Speed also builds up with familiarity. I am sure that in a couple of weeks you will all be a lot more confident and able.

Sara


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 Post subject: Non Verbal Reasoning
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:44 pm 
Hi

I was most interested in Catherine's comments.

I am also trying to get my daughter to build up speed in doing the NVR by following the Bond books. How often was your son practising NVR?

Did you just do Bond and IPS test papers? My daughtr's test is in mid November and is based on the Nfer standard format.

Any advice would be helpful.
Lew


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 Post subject: non verbal reasoning
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:02 pm 
Practising reasoning tests only improves performance by an insignificant amount, and this fact does not in any way alter the urge to practice in those who believe they can change their scores significantly. If you know someone who scores on say the 95th centile, a lifetime of practice will not take a say 75th centile child or adult anywhere near that score.
You need to ask yourself if scoring on the 99th centile will give you what you value, and if you believe so, then prepare to be deeply disappointed. Those of us who do score on the 99th centile can honestly say that we struggle no less with understanding what the worth of things are.
Children naturally try to do their best, thankfullly even when they're pressured by pointless practising, and the best child will be going home with you after the test finishes anyway. Parents often don't remember that choosing the right school for their child to spend many years in is a lot harder than being chosen by the wrong school. Best go for a school that values your child more than you value the school, you'd be surprised at just how great an achiever s/he'll be.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:44 pm 
Hi Mummy,

I found with both my children that practising improved their results by a very significant amount! There is a technique and a method to doing both VR and NVR which can be learned and practised. How much learning and practice is needed to get to a particular child's best will depend on the child. My daughter took her tests, both VR, with very little notice and thus with not a great deal of practice, but being naturally both v.bright and "suited" to the type of question involved, sailed through. Nevertheless, her score had definitely improved from fairly high to very high over a few practices. My son had more practice over a longer period and took both VR and NVR. We await the actual results but his practice scores improved dramatically from beginning the process to ending it, although all the practice in the world would not bring him up to the level his sister attained.

Sara


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 Post subject: NVR Practise
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:20 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Lincolnshire
Hi Mummy

I have read elsewhere that practise does not improve scores by a great deal, however I have to agree with Sara that in fact the reality for many is quite the opposite.

My sons VR improved from 48% on first attempt to around 90% with practise. These are question types that children have not come accross before and have difficulty understanding what is being asked of them without having been shown. Once my son knew what he was required to do, he had no problem whatsoever answering the questions.

As for NVR, I understand that you are either able to do them or not in many cases, but my son again proved that with practise, he was able to improve his score dramatically from 26/65 (first attempt) to around 85%. After doing these types of questions regularly, you are able to identify what is being asked and learn (to an extent) certain tricks of the trade, so to speak, ie how to use the process of ilimination, or whether the number of sides of a shape are significant etc. The code questions also became easier for him with practise.

I think it is a valid point that is made about making sure your children are educated in the right environment for them, however if a parent feels a grammer/selective education is appropriate for their child, it is imperative you give them a fighting chance. The 11+ is no longer a level playing field, children are being coached. I would have felt I had failed my son had I not allowed him access to what he is up against and let him take the tests blind. In our case practise has made a huge amount of difference, mabey for my son the difference between gaining a place or not!
angelz


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 Post subject: practise
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:56 am 
Hi agree with the fact that practise does improve the score.

My son practised for the Bucks test reguarly using the NFER VR papers and passed. Initially he was scoring 50-65% ish by the time he took the test he was scoring 95%.

With Berks test V, NV & Maths we didn't practise very much at all apart from one week before (we were looking at Bucks schools only but he took the berks test because he could). He didn't pass. He only missed by 2 marks so if we had practised, ofcourse it would of made a difference.

Practise in anything is key.

With children they get better in all subjects whatever thier initial ability with practise. I agree that alot reach a peak that they can't exceed but when it comes to these tests ofcourse it will make a difference because it is not something the children have done before.

Clearly we haveto know what needs the 'most' practsie and work with that but I would reccoemnd anyone taking these tests keep practising little and often

MelX


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 Post subject: Re: Non Verbal Reasoning
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:17 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:47 pm
Posts: 1348
Location: Berks,Bucks
Lew wrote:

I was most interested in Catherine's comments.

I am also trying to get my daughter to build up speed in doing the NVR by following the Bond books. How often was your son practising NVR?

Did you just do Bond and IPS test papers? My daughtr's test is in mid November and is based on the Nfer standard format.

Any advice would be helpful.



I had bought the Bond 'How to' but didn't use it.
A month before the exam, I found out that my son was getting scores similar to rsmum's daughter's ones. We were running out of time, so I decided to concentrate on the problem areas.
First, we worked through the first NFER paper. My son was doing one section every day with no time limit, always followed by a discussion about the questions that he had got wrong. It was very useful to ask him to explain how he had got his answer. It was helping him to clarify his mind, and often he realised what he had done wrong by himself.
Once the first paper was completed, he did again the questions he had got wrong the first time. I asked him to think of the reasions behind the right answer if he was able to remember which one it was.
When we moved to the second paper with no time linit, his score had improved dramatically, from 60% to 80%-90%.
His scores dropped again when he started timed papers but improved after 2 weeks of practice. Not as much as would have like though, and we had not time left. But in the end, he passed.

We didn't manage to do a lot more than NFER. Just one ElevenPlusExams E-paper that I found fairly close to the NFER, but a bit harder, and a few bits of the 'Learning Togetner'
The Learning Together are probably good as introduction to NVR, but not too useful at the stage we were at. Too different, and not hard enough.

If had had to do it again and more time , I would do one or two sections of each NFER type, then move on to another publisher for more practice, and go back to NFER at the end for testing.

The IPS were not published last year, so I can't comment on them except that their papers in the other subjects are very useful, close to NFER but a bit harder.

A section a day and the occasional 20mns test was as much as my son was tolerating. Any more and he had an overdose....


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