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 Post subject: Philosophical Debate
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:44 pm 
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They say practice makes perfect, but ...

If you have a candidate A who has the innate ability, and a candidate B, who doesn't, then practice does not necessarily develop B to be someday become better than A.

Discuss


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:36 am 
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My only experience of this on NVR involved two candidates lets call them D (dad) and DS. :lol:

When they started they could both score about 70%, after looking at technique books and doing a few practice papers they had a competition under exam conditions.

D ran out of time and so only scored 70%, DS had time to spare and check answers and so scored 88%.

D just had to accept that DS had a faster brain, but it was the practice papers that helped uncover it.


steve

Some of the names in this story have been changed to protect identities. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:39 am 
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I fear there are gangs of such DC's roaming the country - if you have experienced it and need counselling please call 555879320 for a confidential service.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:51 am 
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practice and learning techniques didn;t make me Rebecca Adlington, but it has meant i can swim 120 lengths instead of 12, not world class but I have improved tremendously and can now swim competently..

same with nvr and vr I reckon.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:27 am 
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There are plenty of people around who have wasted their talents. I could have been a concert pianist if only I'd kept on practising.... :D


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:11 pm
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Location: Barnet
Even Candidate A with innate ability needs to practise else the "innateness" will rot away...

If Candidate B does keep at it, then one particular outcome could be that as that candidate becomes better, there will be a sense of success which will build confidence and this, together with the practise, will nurture the "innateness"...OK, it may not be the "innateness" that gets nurtured, but definitely something more positive will come out of it all...

Now, transposing the whole thing...what if, Candidate B, just misses out on the "success" part...what can happen to B? or even A?
[Hope it's OK to include these arguments as part of this topic - and hope people come out with replies - I could certainly do with feedback here]

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:52 am 
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Taking your driving test without practice is likely to result in a fail. Both A and B will need to have a few driving lessons. However once the techniques are taught A's ability will be very evident and they will outperform B.

If A is unable to take any driving lessons (due to cost, access, parental expectations etc) then it's quite possible B will be on the road before A.

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 Post subject: Philosophical Debate
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:24 pm
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So far in this debate, the contributors have sensibly recognised the critical importance of practice (nurture) in the context of innate ability (nature) and their possible (balancing) interactions later in life for the young learner.

But if we all take a step back and consider what and how we define the terms like "success/failure" and "better/worse (than another)" :?: , then we might notice that this deterministic comparison (say based on one simple measurement of a certain exam score) of one child over another is far too simplistic an approach for such complex socio-cultural animals like us humans.

Take, for instance, the performance of your child on exam day could easily be affected not only by her innate ability and exam preparation work done beforehand, but also by little things like parental expectations or sibling rivalries that could invisibly bear on her little shoulders on the day. Even the actual time of day of the exams (e.g. morning versus afternoon) could impact on such performances.

Success/failure, therefore, as measured by passing/failing a set of 11+ exams is fairly artificial and totally ignores the individual quirks and perks of that living and breathing child whom you call "daughter" or "son".

That is not to say that all comparisons are pointless or meaningless. Indeed, every child is different: some would be quick on certain types of questions while others would prefer to doodle. Some would have a superb 3-D visual-spatial awareness while others wouldn't be able to draw a straight-line even with the help of a ruler. And for school selection purposes, a set of VR/NVR, maths/English papers would certainly yield the appropriate performance rankings for the admissions officer to decide who gets in to the school or not.

Now I revert to PapaM's question of a child missing out on that "success" (i.e. the arbitrary selection-cut using a written-exam process): neither Child A nor Child B would have become materially more/less "successful" immediately after the results day ... depending on how you define success, of course. Both children would have had an "interesting" (and perhaps tiring/scary) personal experience as a result of preparing for and sitting that exam.

What Child A and Child B make of their experience and their later lives at secondary school and beyond would, of course, be highly dependent on their own initiative and the supportive learning environment both at school and at home that they have.

Success/failure at an exam represents merely a point in time of that long personal journey for the child - it certainly is not going to be the end of the world for the child :!: .

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 Post subject: Philosophical Debate
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Location: Caversham
stevew61 wrote:
My only experience of this on NVR involved two candidates lets call them D (dad) and DS. :lol:

When they started they could both score about 70%, after looking at technique books and doing a few practice papers they had a competition under exam conditions.

D ran out of time and so only scored 70%, DS had time to spare and check answers and so scored 88%.

D just had to accept that DS had a faster brain, but it was the practice papers that helped uncover it.


stevew61,

Thanks for sharing with us your humbling experience of being beaten by your rugrat at NVR papers. I too can confess that my DD/DS can and do outperform me at both VR/NVR papers (what I call the raw IQ papers) even though I am certain that I have a much higher IQ than my rugrats (delirium is a sure sign of aging)!

If researchers are to be believed, then our raw IQ scores are terminally on a slow decline from the age of 20 i.e. it's all downhill from there :cry: ! We'd need to expend more energy through continual practice in order to maintain the same level of IQ or even just to slow down the decline the older we get.

That's why by the time we have our midlife crises, we'd act like kids, deny the obvious and make totally irrational decisions over our dress code or where we'd hang out to meet new friends ... a very sobering thought indeed :?

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Debate
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Excellent post Deontological....

And whilst it makes a lot sense, even to me, can I ask your opinion on this and how to handle...

in a school where almost all the children have been "succesful" at 11+; Where their body language has changed; Where they are now brimming over with confidence (and maybe even a bit of arrogance) and sense of achievement....

In such a school, what about one of their peers of around the same level as them, who through no fault of his own, has not managed to secure a place yet...possibly the only one in a school year of 60 kids...and remember, this little chappy was of their calibre a few weeks ago...his body language is also changing to one of someone thinking he is a failure or looser...

How can he be best dealt with to get out of this...I ask cos u've talked sense...I hope it is OK to ask here as this is something that may now be either off-topic and/or gone off the tangent...

Many thanks in anticipation...

P.S. You can make this child A or child B, or both...seems irrelevant..

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