Dyslexia and CAT scores
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Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
OK from what you describe to me she does not "decode the words" very well - her comprehension is probably OK, it's just fogged by not being able to "lift the words" off the page satisfactorily. It's pretty impressive she got the scores she did. What is the frequency of this kind of error? People do make some errors and it is within norms, but if what you are saying happens very frequently on each page she reads it is a killer of reading joy, accuracy, comprehension etc.
Does more time in exams benefit her? If so, you should be trying to get more time for her in SATS etc - pester your school. However, there is a pretty high chance that her reading skills and spelling would improve greatly if she received some good phonics tuition. You will only know if you have a good blast at it. This doesn't mean continuing to read whatever she reads now badly for more time each day. That might only ingrain the errors and frustration.
Would she be patient enough to try this even if meant going back a bit with her reading, and would she work with you on it? She would need probably 40 - 80 hours of one to one plus work at home om her own to get up to speed with her reading. Even if you could find a tutor who would teach her this way (and they are rare) it would cost a lot compared with doing it yourself, buying some interesing books, some materials for learning the different letter-sound correspondences.
I'm going to dig out a few website links that you might find useful. What you need is a phonics reading and writing scheme that will have some appeal to her age group. Otherwise you could just work through a book called Toe by Toe if you and she have the patience to work through it together (probably the cheapest option, but you must stick to the instructions and be sure she is using the right sounds for each letter sound, or cluster of letters, that it teaches. It's a bit dry but some families get on with it extremely well and it does a fantastic job - see the reviews on Amazon).
She needs to learn letter-sound correspondences very thoroughly and get into the habit of decoding words correctly from left to right. For instance, if she had been taught well phonically she would not read started and stared as the same thing. She would see started as s t ar t with the ending ed which can sound like id or t depending on the word. She would see stare as s t are (with the are sounding like the are in care). She would be able to sound out each individual sound in the word (not with letter names - with their pure sounds) and then blend them into the whole words. With practice this would get faster and faster until she was a fluent reader.
Also if you say a word to her she should be able to orally segment it. e.g. if you say the word beam - she should be able to split it into three sounds (not letter names) b ee m. She should then know the different ways of spelling the ee sounds - e.g. ee, ea e-e (with a consonant in between the two e's). With practice she will learn which way to spell it in which words if she reads and writes a lot, and works with word lists based on the different spellings.
There is an awful lot of free stuff about improving reading this way on the web. I'll dig out some links later this weekend.
Does more time in exams benefit her? If so, you should be trying to get more time for her in SATS etc - pester your school. However, there is a pretty high chance that her reading skills and spelling would improve greatly if she received some good phonics tuition. You will only know if you have a good blast at it. This doesn't mean continuing to read whatever she reads now badly for more time each day. That might only ingrain the errors and frustration.
Would she be patient enough to try this even if meant going back a bit with her reading, and would she work with you on it? She would need probably 40 - 80 hours of one to one plus work at home om her own to get up to speed with her reading. Even if you could find a tutor who would teach her this way (and they are rare) it would cost a lot compared with doing it yourself, buying some interesing books, some materials for learning the different letter-sound correspondences.
I'm going to dig out a few website links that you might find useful. What you need is a phonics reading and writing scheme that will have some appeal to her age group. Otherwise you could just work through a book called Toe by Toe if you and she have the patience to work through it together (probably the cheapest option, but you must stick to the instructions and be sure she is using the right sounds for each letter sound, or cluster of letters, that it teaches. It's a bit dry but some families get on with it extremely well and it does a fantastic job - see the reviews on Amazon).
She needs to learn letter-sound correspondences very thoroughly and get into the habit of decoding words correctly from left to right. For instance, if she had been taught well phonically she would not read started and stared as the same thing. She would see started as s t ar t with the ending ed which can sound like id or t depending on the word. She would see stare as s t are (with the are sounding like the are in care). She would be able to sound out each individual sound in the word (not with letter names - with their pure sounds) and then blend them into the whole words. With practice this would get faster and faster until she was a fluent reader.
Also if you say a word to her she should be able to orally segment it. e.g. if you say the word beam - she should be able to split it into three sounds (not letter names) b ee m. She should then know the different ways of spelling the ee sounds - e.g. ee, ea e-e (with a consonant in between the two e's). With practice she will learn which way to spell it in which words if she reads and writes a lot, and works with word lists based on the different spellings.
There is an awful lot of free stuff about improving reading this way on the web. I'll dig out some links later this weekend.
Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
I meant to ask, can she really not "blend" at all. If you say to her b a t (pure sounds not letter names) can she stick them together into a word .e.g you have a game of say it fast - b l o b - say it fast. What word would she come out with? Try it with rude or funny words to make it a good game, tell me what happens.
Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
If you want to hear what I am talking about when I mention sounds, go to Phonics International dot com and click the blue button on the left "hear the sounds".
Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
I wanted to pop up and say DS 'failed' with a score of 113, which to be fair was in maths and we were able to evidence ability with other tests etc. and show it was a blip. A child with dyslexia would be supported through GS and may have to find alternative ways of working but it shouldn't stop DD achieving. She is clearly able as evidenced with the other scores but may just need support with this one area.
You may be shortish on time but I would be putting everything I could in to researching like mystery has suggested. We too wouldn't have been able to afford an EP report but I wouldn't have let that stop me pushing for all it was worth in the school by talking with the senco if I found evidence to suggest the school were wrong to dismiss my concerns.
I agree with what the others have said to an extent but it is your decision at the end of the day. Perhaps your DD is now saying she is more than happy with the allocated school for the same reason as mine did..... Accepting what is given, and that isn't always best
Good luck x
You may be shortish on time but I would be putting everything I could in to researching like mystery has suggested. We too wouldn't have been able to afford an EP report but I wouldn't have let that stop me pushing for all it was worth in the school by talking with the senco if I found evidence to suggest the school were wrong to dismiss my concerns.
I agree with what the others have said to an extent but it is your decision at the end of the day. Perhaps your DD is now saying she is more than happy with the allocated school for the same reason as mine did..... Accepting what is given, and that isn't always best
Good luck x
Money can't buy you happiness, but it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery.
Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
Hi Mystery
Do you have any views on the book by McGuiness and McGuiness 'Reading Reflex: The Foolproof Method for Teaching Your Child to Read'?
I was looking into learning to read on the internet and came across some previous newsletters to a reading/literacy network who mentioned lectures by Doctor McGuines and subsequently led to this book.
Do you have any views on the book by McGuiness and McGuiness 'Reading Reflex: The Foolproof Method for Teaching Your Child to Read'?
I was looking into learning to read on the internet and came across some previous newsletters to a reading/literacy network who mentioned lectures by Doctor McGuines and subsequently led to this book.
Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
I am not well read enough to know the book or the authors - at first I thought you were referring to Diane McGuinness, but that is not the case. The book seems to be about Phonographix from the front cover I have seen on A*****. So far as I know Phonographix is a well thought of synthetic phonics schemes. Moon Hall in Dorking, a private specialist school for dyslexia uses it. The headteacher there is a Phonographix trainer and trains all the staff there. I think they get very good "ratio gains" ( increase in reading age divided by increase in chronological age) and a areasonably proportion of the children who go to the specialist prep school go back into mainstream education.
I don't know if it is a method one can easily pick up in full from reading this book or not. The trouble usually comes when when you want some reading material, other than "drills", to practise what has been learned so far, and enjoy reading.
Were you referring to the RRF website?
I don't know if it is a method one can easily pick up in full from reading this book or not. The trouble usually comes when when you want some reading material, other than "drills", to practise what has been learned so far, and enjoy reading.
Were you referring to the RRF website?
Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
I support Mystery's Toe-by-Toe recommendation - yes it is dry and you ideally need to do a bit every day (anywhere between 10 and 30 minutes), but the fact it is highly structured makes it easy, we simply follow the instructions. But once you start to see progress that is very exciting! I started it in January with my 7 year old DS who was reading some words backwards (was / saw) and could sound out individual letters but not things like ch, sh, ing. We are getting on well with it, yesterday he was reading words like edify and hybrid (so I had to deal with the inevitable follow up question "what does edify mean Mummy?" 
)and his confidence is growing.
Mystery I am also interested in any links you are able to suggest.
Thank you
poppit
I started it in January with my 7 year old DS who was reading some words backwards (was / saw) and could sound out individual letters but not things like ch, sh, ing. We are getting on well with it, yesterday he was reading words like edify and hybrid (so I had to deal with the inevitable follow up question "what does edify mean Mummy?" )and his confidence is growing.Mystery I am also interested in any links you are able to suggest.
Thank you
poppit
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kentmum2011
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:34 pm
Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
Thanks mystery. She actually did OK blending out sounds when given them verbally, it's more picking out the sounds in written words and then blending together, eg, when reading the name Sheena she kept saying Shaleena. She's definitely starting to learn more words by sight recognition rather than decoding which is how she's improving I think.
I'd had a quick look at Toe by Toe when trawling the web, I wasn't sure if it was right for her but I shall go back and look into further. She's keen to improve so hopefully she'll work with me.
I'd had a quick look at Toe by Toe when trawling the web, I wasn't sure if it was right for her but I shall go back and look into further. She's keen to improve so hopefully she'll work with me.
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Caroline1852
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:24 am
Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
I feel you should appeal. Especially given the grammar school is undersubscribed. What's to lose? She is but a whisker away from having passed in just one area, and without having been tutored. You could always CHOOSE to go to the high school after you've appealed. No?
I went to parents' evening last week for my primary age children and I came away wondering if the teacher even knew who my small son was. His teacher said he was working well with numbers up to 20 but this is nonsense, he is very secure up to about 45,651. And can add, subtract, multiply and divide securely within 100. She didn't seem to know the first thing about him. I think this happens a lot in schools and if your child has had a real learning spurt your school's opinion may be a bit out of date.
There will be LOTS of children at grammar schools with SATs results of 5, 5, 4b.
You could appeal and not tell her, then offer her the choice if there's one to be had. If not, nothing lost except a wasted day. Though probably stressful. Ach. I dunno. I wish you and your daughter the best. But she was so close wasn't she and without tutoring and the school is undersubscribed. Sheesh.
I went to parents' evening last week for my primary age children and I came away wondering if the teacher even knew who my small son was. His teacher said he was working well with numbers up to 20 but this is nonsense, he is very secure up to about 45,651. And can add, subtract, multiply and divide securely within 100. She didn't seem to know the first thing about him. I think this happens a lot in schools and if your child has had a real learning spurt your school's opinion may be a bit out of date.
There will be LOTS of children at grammar schools with SATs results of 5, 5, 4b.
You could appeal and not tell her, then offer her the choice if there's one to be had. If not, nothing lost except a wasted day. Though probably stressful. Ach. I dunno. I wish you and your daughter the best. But she was so close wasn't she and without tutoring and the school is undersubscribed. Sheesh.
Re: Dyslexia and CAT scores
Sorry have not dug out those websites yet, I will do. In the meantime here's a bit more, particularly relevant to the OP, but maybe others too.
Ok, back to the OP. If your DD can orally put together words (e.g. you say c a t, she says cat, you say h ow l er, she says howler (sounds not letters) ) then she should theoretically be able to blend new words easily (i.e. new words she has not read before such as Sheena).
This assumes that she knows all the letter- sound correspondences (GPCs) .......... download an alphabetic code chart from phonics international to see what I mean. If she doesn't, or if she is slow to recall them, then this could be part of the issue.
Also, try the test on oral segmentation of words with her, also from the free assessment section on that website. This is an exercise (again no reading like the oral blending) where you say a word like "cat" and she sounds it out c a t. The words get progressively harder.
If she can do all of these things, then she has the basic skills needed to be able to read accurately, but she is lacking the practice in doing so correctly. If she reads Shaleena instead of Sheena, either she finds this name hard to pronounce, or she is kind of seeing what she wants to see rather than what is written. You could go on the DfE website and see if she can do the sample material for the year 1 phonics check which comes in this summer. If she can't, then maybe this would help to persuade the school they need to teacher to decode words accurately!!
I think probably from what you say that Toe by Toe would be a very good thing for her, unless you can find a reading scheme that introduces the letter - sound correspondences one by one that she would enjoy. This is very hard to find for a child of that age --------- much easier for a KS1 or early KS2 child. She might respond to the fact that Toe by Toe is used for adults learning to read - this might make it seem OK. Also if you bash on with it you should be able to do it in 9 months or less. This would be far better than going into secondary school a "disabled reader".
There is a lot of information on righttrackreading.com .
It sounds a though your daughter has learned to read by "sight" - whole words - that's fine in a way, a lot of us have done so. But it doesn't sound as though the method has worked that well for her personally as she is not attending to the finer detail of words - she's either guessing or seeing what she wants to see if you see what I mean.
Toe by Toe will force her, from the earliest page, to pay proper attention to all the sounds within each and every word, and read the words correctly from left to right. The thing she will miss out on by doing Toe by Toe rather than a complete phonics programme is a lot of the writing. However, in the time you have got to turn things around this might be more practical.
Couple more free sites you could try include Mona McNee - try googling, or the Kirk-Legge stuff on the Don Potter website.
The thing with Toe by Toe is that you have the repetition and feedback built in to the book. If you and she have the time, I really would give it a go. I think that no matter how much you pester your school they probably do not have the skills to remediate her reading or they would have done so sooner.
The other thing that you can do is make your own word lists for her on worksheet genius - let's say she was not great at reading words with o-e in the like phone, home, bone etc etc - worksheet genius would give you a list of such words as long as your arm and you could select the ones that you wanted using that phonic pattern for reading or spelling practice.
Good luck.
Ok, back to the OP. If your DD can orally put together words (e.g. you say c a t, she says cat, you say h ow l er, she says howler (sounds not letters) ) then she should theoretically be able to blend new words easily (i.e. new words she has not read before such as Sheena).
This assumes that she knows all the letter- sound correspondences (GPCs) .......... download an alphabetic code chart from phonics international to see what I mean. If she doesn't, or if she is slow to recall them, then this could be part of the issue.
Also, try the test on oral segmentation of words with her, also from the free assessment section on that website. This is an exercise (again no reading like the oral blending) where you say a word like "cat" and she sounds it out c a t. The words get progressively harder.
If she can do all of these things, then she has the basic skills needed to be able to read accurately, but she is lacking the practice in doing so correctly. If she reads Shaleena instead of Sheena, either she finds this name hard to pronounce, or she is kind of seeing what she wants to see rather than what is written. You could go on the DfE website and see if she can do the sample material for the year 1 phonics check which comes in this summer. If she can't, then maybe this would help to persuade the school they need to teacher to decode words accurately!!
I think probably from what you say that Toe by Toe would be a very good thing for her, unless you can find a reading scheme that introduces the letter - sound correspondences one by one that she would enjoy. This is very hard to find for a child of that age --------- much easier for a KS1 or early KS2 child. She might respond to the fact that Toe by Toe is used for adults learning to read - this might make it seem OK. Also if you bash on with it you should be able to do it in 9 months or less. This would be far better than going into secondary school a "disabled reader".
There is a lot of information on righttrackreading.com .
It sounds a though your daughter has learned to read by "sight" - whole words - that's fine in a way, a lot of us have done so. But it doesn't sound as though the method has worked that well for her personally as she is not attending to the finer detail of words - she's either guessing or seeing what she wants to see if you see what I mean.
Toe by Toe will force her, from the earliest page, to pay proper attention to all the sounds within each and every word, and read the words correctly from left to right. The thing she will miss out on by doing Toe by Toe rather than a complete phonics programme is a lot of the writing. However, in the time you have got to turn things around this might be more practical.
Couple more free sites you could try include Mona McNee - try googling, or the Kirk-Legge stuff on the Don Potter website.
The thing with Toe by Toe is that you have the repetition and feedback built in to the book. If you and she have the time, I really would give it a go. I think that no matter how much you pester your school they probably do not have the skills to remediate her reading or they would have done so sooner.
The other thing that you can do is make your own word lists for her on worksheet genius - let's say she was not great at reading words with o-e in the like phone, home, bone etc etc - worksheet genius would give you a list of such words as long as your arm and you could select the ones that you wanted using that phonic pattern for reading or spelling practice.
Good luck.
