is eleven plus fair to Sen
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Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
Going back a long way to my previous post! how have your children coped in grammar school? My dd missed by 10 points, however had no tuition and we have just recently been told she could have had extra time and a room on her own. Her ASD 'issues' make her have a need for order and she is a perfectionist among other things. She is predicted a level 5 for reading, 4a for maths and literacy. Bearing in mind these were predicted before we were told about her allowances so I presume her marks could be higher. I don't feel I can ask the school for a letter of support as they don't see her difficulties, as she is doing well and appears happy. There are other children who have missed by just one point and are level 5s etc and have support from the school. I have a letter re her ASD and extra time and last years report which says she is capable of producing work of a high standard but has no confidence in her ability and she hasn't reached her full potential. She has had no support from her teachers as it is not apparent that she needs support, however I have has full support from the SENco. Any tips for appeals would be hugely appreciated as I realy don't want to mess up this up!
Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
Smartie, my daughter has not started yet. However, as I know there are other ASD children in the school, and we are already in discussion with the school about adjustments which they are not only open to, but have suggested some of their own, so I suspect she will get on better.
You do not necessarily need school support to be successful. My daughter was given a 2,2 (keeping in mind she had done level 5's at the end of year 5 in mock sats how she is a 2 for ability I will never know). But we had evidence that directly linked her ASD to problems with the test (ed psych, CAMHS, paediatrician). One report was a few years old but showed that it was not a new issue. We also had academic evidence which included school reports and outside academic activity certificates and reports.
As for if grammar school is right for your daughter, only you will know. I did a LOT of research into secondary schools before we picked which ones we were interested in. Only 1 grammar school was put on the form, the other choices were upper schools. For us it was not so much about grammar schools than about a specific school which was a grammar. You will find SENCO's at grammar schools are fully open to discussing how much experience they have with SEN, what kinds of adjustments are done for different children, .... Also I can strongly recommend getting in touch with your local NAS branch and asking other parents what schools they send their kids to. Also, all schools will have the number of children with statements or on school action plus in the league tables http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/per ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , so you can see if the grammar you are interested in has any children with statements or school action plus in them. Some have more than others, some have none.
I think you may be successful if you show a causal link between the ASD and the poor test results and the ASD and under performance at school. Appeal panels are probably more knowledgeable about these situations because they see them more often than primary schools.
You do not necessarily need school support to be successful. My daughter was given a 2,2 (keeping in mind she had done level 5's at the end of year 5 in mock sats how she is a 2 for ability I will never know). But we had evidence that directly linked her ASD to problems with the test (ed psych, CAMHS, paediatrician). One report was a few years old but showed that it was not a new issue. We also had academic evidence which included school reports and outside academic activity certificates and reports.
As for if grammar school is right for your daughter, only you will know. I did a LOT of research into secondary schools before we picked which ones we were interested in. Only 1 grammar school was put on the form, the other choices were upper schools. For us it was not so much about grammar schools than about a specific school which was a grammar. You will find SENCO's at grammar schools are fully open to discussing how much experience they have with SEN, what kinds of adjustments are done for different children, .... Also I can strongly recommend getting in touch with your local NAS branch and asking other parents what schools they send their kids to. Also, all schools will have the number of children with statements or on school action plus in the league tables http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/per ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , so you can see if the grammar you are interested in has any children with statements or school action plus in them. Some have more than others, some have none.
I think you may be successful if you show a causal link between the ASD and the poor test results and the ASD and under performance at school. Appeal panels are probably more knowledgeable about these situations because they see them more often than primary schools.
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Morning Glory
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Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
Smartie
My DS was 15 marks away from the qualifying score, we appealed and is now in Year 8 of GS, loves it and is doing well. The support is amazing and he loves the discipline, structure and predictability.
Were you actually granted extra time and a separate room? Being able to apply for it even with supporting evidence does not mean it will be granted.
We initally applied for an enlarged answer sheet, separate room & break this was all granted. We later applied for extra time but this was refused although we had evidence from a number of professionals of his need. Although initally I was annoyed in hindsight by refusing extra time I believe it gave us a stronger case at appeal.
Have you sorted out any adjustments for her SATs? - DS had a scribe which he had to have in the classroom for a while before the exam and also to get used to being able to tell the scribe what he wanted them to write down, as they have to tell them when to put in capitals and punctuation etc. He was tested separately, had a break and had extra time. I believe all the adjustments except the extra time can be authorised by the school themselves.
My DS was 15 marks away from the qualifying score, we appealed and is now in Year 8 of GS, loves it and is doing well. The support is amazing and he loves the discipline, structure and predictability.
Were you actually granted extra time and a separate room? Being able to apply for it even with supporting evidence does not mean it will be granted.
We initally applied for an enlarged answer sheet, separate room & break this was all granted. We later applied for extra time but this was refused although we had evidence from a number of professionals of his need. Although initally I was annoyed in hindsight by refusing extra time I believe it gave us a stronger case at appeal.
Have you sorted out any adjustments for her SATs? - DS had a scribe which he had to have in the classroom for a while before the exam and also to get used to being able to tell the scribe what he wanted them to write down, as they have to tell them when to put in capitals and punctuation etc. He was tested separately, had a break and had extra time. I believe all the adjustments except the extra time can be authorised by the school themselves.
Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
Thanks for both of your replies. I'm not appealing for the school because it is a grammar school, it's because it is an 'outstanding' school that gives excellent support to SEN children. The other alternative I have is a satisfactory school with poor exam results and poor teaching. My dd was not given any allowances for the 11 plus but will have extra time and a seperate room for the SATs. She did better on the first paper, just missed by 2 points but the second paper was lower. I believe this was due to having break and discussing the exam with her friends. She said this worried her as they said they thought it was easy, she then couldn't concentrate for 2nd paper and left out 15 questions. She normally had roughly the same scores for each paper when she practised at home. Don't know how I'll get on but thanks for your help. 
Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
Given that testing is such a major part of schooling in this country, I would argue that perhaps a grammar school may not be the best place for an ASD child who underperforms on tests. The atmosphere can be very pressurised and competitive and there's much more anxiety in generally neurologically typical children in these environments...I would hate to think how it would affect someone with an ASD.
My daughter has just done dismally on a first stage grammar school test as it was in VR and NVR. She was not tutored because I think if you have to tutor your child to pass these tests, it's probably not the best school for them to go to. She can achieve level 5 in both maths and English but due to her ASD she performs very erratically on tests...so much depends on what she is like on the day and all initial testing of her ASD indicates she finds those reasoning skills difficult (whilst being well ahead of her peers in many other areas).
We are lucky we can afford independent schooling and frankly I feel the smaller class sizes and recognition of other intelligences and interests in the selection process rather than just how well you can do VR and NVR test will be the best environment we could offer her. Although it would have been very nice not to have to pay school fees!
It would be GREAT if there could be a selection process for Grammar schools that recognises the difficulties someone with an ASD faces, but given that there is no 'one size fits all' solution and there are hundreds, if not thousands of applicants, I can understand it isn't practical. There are also those people who would lie to exploit any system of helping the genuinely needy and it would open up a whole can of worms for schools and the perceived 'fairness' of the procedures. Sadly the workplace and life outside school doesn't always accommodate the children's differences either and I am trying to focus on helping my daughter cope with everyday life as it is rather than expecting any sympathy or understanding from those ill-equipped to offer either....
My daughter has just done dismally on a first stage grammar school test as it was in VR and NVR. She was not tutored because I think if you have to tutor your child to pass these tests, it's probably not the best school for them to go to. She can achieve level 5 in both maths and English but due to her ASD she performs very erratically on tests...so much depends on what she is like on the day and all initial testing of her ASD indicates she finds those reasoning skills difficult (whilst being well ahead of her peers in many other areas).
We are lucky we can afford independent schooling and frankly I feel the smaller class sizes and recognition of other intelligences and interests in the selection process rather than just how well you can do VR and NVR test will be the best environment we could offer her. Although it would have been very nice not to have to pay school fees!
It would be GREAT if there could be a selection process for Grammar schools that recognises the difficulties someone with an ASD faces, but given that there is no 'one size fits all' solution and there are hundreds, if not thousands of applicants, I can understand it isn't practical. There are also those people who would lie to exploit any system of helping the genuinely needy and it would open up a whole can of worms for schools and the perceived 'fairness' of the procedures. Sadly the workplace and life outside school doesn't always accommodate the children's differences either and I am trying to focus on helping my daughter cope with everyday life as it is rather than expecting any sympathy or understanding from those ill-equipped to offer either....
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Disney-Mum
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- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:02 am
Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
We have just done the 11+ - my son has ADHD, Aspergers, Dyspraxia and all the intertwined social and emotional difficulties. We have had a horrific last 2 years, but he really wanted to try for grammar school - like you, we were worried on the toll it would take.
I would like to add a happy story, by saying, he did very well.
We didn't get any extra time, but because of his statement, he was put in a 'smaller room' for one school (1st test had 7 children, second he was on his own). The second school we sat in didn't put anything into place, but we met with the SENCO beforehand, and explained his difficulties, so he met with her first (meaning he had a familiar face in the room). This school did 'mock exams' so we put him in with the main groups for those, and, surprisingly, he coped very well.
He passed both exams, with great scores (which is amazing because he finished the first in 30mins so we though he must have been distracted). However, now we need to choose the best school for his needs.
He wasn't tutored, I went through some question types with him at home.
The amazing thing is, he has been having real problems at Primary school, being bullied, and it has been taking us backwards, but he seemed to find comfort in the exam process.
It is possible to get the help, but you REALLY need to fight for it. I feel like I am constantly fighting for the boys in my house (my eldest is Autistic and on an entirely different level to his brother).
If I had not felt like the school were willing to help my son with the exams, I wouldn't consider sending him there, because I wouldn't have any confidence he would get the support he needs, on an ongoing basis - statements are VERY helpful, and open doors, but you still have to fight to get the school to use them correctly!
x
I would like to add a happy story, by saying, he did very well.
We didn't get any extra time, but because of his statement, he was put in a 'smaller room' for one school (1st test had 7 children, second he was on his own). The second school we sat in didn't put anything into place, but we met with the SENCO beforehand, and explained his difficulties, so he met with her first (meaning he had a familiar face in the room). This school did 'mock exams' so we put him in with the main groups for those, and, surprisingly, he coped very well.
He passed both exams, with great scores (which is amazing because he finished the first in 30mins so we though he must have been distracted). However, now we need to choose the best school for his needs.
He wasn't tutored, I went through some question types with him at home.
The amazing thing is, he has been having real problems at Primary school, being bullied, and it has been taking us backwards, but he seemed to find comfort in the exam process.
It is possible to get the help, but you REALLY need to fight for it. I feel like I am constantly fighting for the boys in my house (my eldest is Autistic and on an entirely different level to his brother).
If I had not felt like the school were willing to help my son with the exams, I wouldn't consider sending him there, because I wouldn't have any confidence he would get the support he needs, on an ongoing basis - statements are VERY helpful, and open doors, but you still have to fight to get the school to use them correctly!
x
Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
Just an update, my daughter is doing VERY well at her new grammar and is coping better then we could ever have hoped for. She is fortunate enough to be in a grammar school with lots of experience with ASD.
I thought if I explained why we ended up allowing her to go to grammar school despite the test anxiety issues.
Number one, was the specific grammar school we got her into. We knew up front they had experience and could and would make necessary adjustments.
Number two, her test anxiety goes down significantly when there is a lot of practice in the test environment in test conditions. There are three necessary ingredients to get her to enjoy the test: strong familiarization, comfortable in the environment, and having the test in perspective before taking it (for example not having other adults and children say things like it is the most important test of your life or how you will be a failure if you don't pas).
Number three, we all needed to be able to have something good come out of the bad. It was a very important life lesson for her to know that even if you fail, it is not the end. You need to pick yourself up and just keep doing the best you can with what your circumstances are.
Number four, when we went to the appeal we were still not convinced it was the right thing to do. We were very honest about everything and told the full truth about what happened and showed evidence of her abilities. We decided that it was better to have a detatched third party say what was best for her. This is especially true since different professionals in the school had different opinions as to whether or not she would be better off at a grammar or not. It was divided between she will be bored at a non-selective and she would be happier in a non pressure environment. But the truth is as it is a lot easier to move from grammar to selective than the other way around, we went with the appeal and let her go to grammar.
My daughter is now, for the first time in her life, in a school with people who she feels are just like her. She is thriving in a way I never saw her do before. Her emotional and social needs are being met, and her academic needs are too. I can honestly say I never thought I would ever see the day this could happen. I still can not say that the trauma we went through makes it worth it, but I have gone from saying it isn't worth it to I am not sure. I do not know if she would be this happy in a non-selective school.
I think what I would say is that there are grammar schools who are brilliant with ASD and who even want children with ASD because even if they are not evenly good across all subjects, if the subjects they are good at are their obsession, it does help the schools results. And for those subjects they are less good with, they can easily explain the lower than expected results. I do not think test anxiety issues should be a bar to access to a higher level of education.
And the reason the appeal was successful on discrimination grounds was because the test in our area made the necessary adjustment she would have needed against the rules. The way to get my child to have no test anxiety is lots of practice under test conditions (test conditions include the test room). The reason she did so well on the SATs is the school had been training her on it for years. Had she had extra 11+ practice in the exact 11+ test conditions and had she had no knowledge of what other parents and children were saying about the importance of the 11+ (or had someone in authority offer her proof that what the others were saying was nonsense) she would most likely have done a lot better then she did.
I thought if I explained why we ended up allowing her to go to grammar school despite the test anxiety issues.
Number one, was the specific grammar school we got her into. We knew up front they had experience and could and would make necessary adjustments.
Number two, her test anxiety goes down significantly when there is a lot of practice in the test environment in test conditions. There are three necessary ingredients to get her to enjoy the test: strong familiarization, comfortable in the environment, and having the test in perspective before taking it (for example not having other adults and children say things like it is the most important test of your life or how you will be a failure if you don't pas).
Number three, we all needed to be able to have something good come out of the bad. It was a very important life lesson for her to know that even if you fail, it is not the end. You need to pick yourself up and just keep doing the best you can with what your circumstances are.
Number four, when we went to the appeal we were still not convinced it was the right thing to do. We were very honest about everything and told the full truth about what happened and showed evidence of her abilities. We decided that it was better to have a detatched third party say what was best for her. This is especially true since different professionals in the school had different opinions as to whether or not she would be better off at a grammar or not. It was divided between she will be bored at a non-selective and she would be happier in a non pressure environment. But the truth is as it is a lot easier to move from grammar to selective than the other way around, we went with the appeal and let her go to grammar.
My daughter is now, for the first time in her life, in a school with people who she feels are just like her. She is thriving in a way I never saw her do before. Her emotional and social needs are being met, and her academic needs are too. I can honestly say I never thought I would ever see the day this could happen. I still can not say that the trauma we went through makes it worth it, but I have gone from saying it isn't worth it to I am not sure. I do not know if she would be this happy in a non-selective school.
I think what I would say is that there are grammar schools who are brilliant with ASD and who even want children with ASD because even if they are not evenly good across all subjects, if the subjects they are good at are their obsession, it does help the schools results. And for those subjects they are less good with, they can easily explain the lower than expected results. I do not think test anxiety issues should be a bar to access to a higher level of education.
And the reason the appeal was successful on discrimination grounds was because the test in our area made the necessary adjustment she would have needed against the rules. The way to get my child to have no test anxiety is lots of practice under test conditions (test conditions include the test room). The reason she did so well on the SATs is the school had been training her on it for years. Had she had extra 11+ practice in the exact 11+ test conditions and had she had no knowledge of what other parents and children were saying about the importance of the 11+ (or had someone in authority offer her proof that what the others were saying was nonsense) she would most likely have done a lot better then she did.
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Disney-Mum
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:02 am
Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
I'm so pleased she is doing well - I truly believe Grammar School is best for my son also.
Its wonderful you managed to get something good out of it- I hope she is feeling very proud of herself.
x
Its wonderful you managed to get something good out of it- I hope she is feeling very proud of herself.
x
Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
I am really pleased your sen children have found places at the right school for them. My daughter is clearly rubbish at VR and NVR and performed dismally on her recent tests to a super selective grammar. If that is the test needed to gain entry then she would probably not have enjoyed attending the school anyway.
I am encouraged by a friends son who also bombed out on his 11+, failed to gain entry to any grammar schools to which he applied but has recently earned an Open Scholarship to Eton college for 6th form!
Perhaps my caught will blossom academically, perhaps not. Now I am searching for a school at which she will be happy and have the confidence to do her best. Not everyone with sen will be an academic high flier, but everyone will have to find a path in life that suits them. I hope the school at which she is placed will help her to do just that.
I am encouraged by a friends son who also bombed out on his 11+, failed to gain entry to any grammar schools to which he applied but has recently earned an Open Scholarship to Eton college for 6th form!
Perhaps my caught will blossom academically, perhaps not. Now I am searching for a school at which she will be happy and have the confidence to do her best. Not everyone with sen will be an academic high flier, but everyone will have to find a path in life that suits them. I hope the school at which she is placed will help her to do just that.
Re: is eleven plus fair to Sen
it's those seemingly little things that count. If the school knows, understands, cares and can see behind the immediate - then that is a good school, regardless of whether it is grammar, academy or comprehensiveDisney-Mum wrote:We have just done the 11+ - my son has ADHD, Aspergers, Dyspraxia and all the intertwined social and emotional difficulties. We have had a horrific last 2 years, but he really wanted to try for grammar school - like you, we were worried on the toll it would take.
I would like to add a happy story, by saying, he did very well.
We didn't get any extra time, but because of his statement, he was put in a 'smaller room' for one school (1st test had 7 children, second he was on his own). The second school we sat in didn't put anything into place, but we met with the SENCO beforehand, and explained his difficulties, so he met with her first (meaning he had a familiar face in the room). This school did 'mock exams' so we put him in with the main groups for those, and, surprisingly, he coped very well.
He passed both exams, with great scores (which is amazing because he finished the first in 30mins so we though he must have been distracted). However, now we need to choose the best school for his needs.
He wasn't tutored, I went through some question types with him at home.
The amazing thing is, he has been having real problems at Primary school, being bullied, and it has been taking us backwards, but he seemed to find comfort in the exam process.
It is possible to get the help, but you REALLY need to fight for it. I feel like I am constantly fighting for the boys in my house (my eldest is Autistic and on an entirely different level to his brother).
If I had not felt like the school were willing to help my son with the exams, I wouldn't consider sending him there, because I wouldn't have any confidence he would get the support he needs, on an ongoing basis - statements are VERY helpful, and open doors, but you still have to fight to get the school to use them correctly!
x