Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
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Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
Ok this has been bugging me for a couple of weeks now, but I have been waiting for my sons EP report which has confirmed that he has moderate dyslexia.
I had been concerned for about 9 months that my son was not achieving what he was able to at school. He started y4 with middle and high level 3 and so was in the lower end of the top groups in class and he is no trouble in class, although he does like to talk - alot!
By November last year his levels had not changed since Easter and so I arranged for him to go to a tutor to try and help him with a view to starting 11+ tuition this September. It turned out to be a good thing as the tutor is a dyslexia assessor and suggested that I spoke to the school and arranged a EP report. The school completely dismissed the idea that he could be dyslexic but was helpful in filling in the report for the EP to consider.
In the meantime the tutor has said that I should take a look at a sample paper for the English 11+ and that my DS won't be able to do it. I am having difficulty understanding why. I have looked at the paper and yes it looks hard, but I thought that with the extra tuition that he would be tutored to understand the paper and how to answer the questions.
These are the figures given to me in his EP report WISC IV
His General Ability Index is 124 at percentile 95
Verbal comprehension is 124 at percentile 95
Perceptual Reasoning is 119 at percentile 90
Working memory is 91 at percentile 27
Processing speed is 97 at percentile 42
Reading - single word recognition is 109 at percentile 73
Reading comprehension - reading speed is 120, comprehension is 97 at percentile 42
Spelling is 87 at percentile 19
I could go on as there is lots more information so If you need to know anymore please ask.
He is 8 and in y4, so do I give up?
I had been concerned for about 9 months that my son was not achieving what he was able to at school. He started y4 with middle and high level 3 and so was in the lower end of the top groups in class and he is no trouble in class, although he does like to talk - alot!
By November last year his levels had not changed since Easter and so I arranged for him to go to a tutor to try and help him with a view to starting 11+ tuition this September. It turned out to be a good thing as the tutor is a dyslexia assessor and suggested that I spoke to the school and arranged a EP report. The school completely dismissed the idea that he could be dyslexic but was helpful in filling in the report for the EP to consider.
In the meantime the tutor has said that I should take a look at a sample paper for the English 11+ and that my DS won't be able to do it. I am having difficulty understanding why. I have looked at the paper and yes it looks hard, but I thought that with the extra tuition that he would be tutored to understand the paper and how to answer the questions.
These are the figures given to me in his EP report WISC IV
His General Ability Index is 124 at percentile 95
Verbal comprehension is 124 at percentile 95
Perceptual Reasoning is 119 at percentile 90
Working memory is 91 at percentile 27
Processing speed is 97 at percentile 42
Reading - single word recognition is 109 at percentile 73
Reading comprehension - reading speed is 120, comprehension is 97 at percentile 42
Spelling is 87 at percentile 19
I could go on as there is lots more information so If you need to know anymore please ask.
He is 8 and in y4, so do I give up?
Re: Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
Can I refer you to these threads?
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... 40&t=24489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... m.php?f=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There's some useful stuff in there.
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... 40&t=24489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... m.php?f=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There's some useful stuff in there.
Re: Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
Out of interest, try this re processing speed: http://www.brainy-child.com/expert/WISC ... peed.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: working memory _ I thought there had been some recent research (proper stuff, not cranky rubbish) which shows that working memory can be improved through work that puts a load on working memory.
How was it tested? Some of these tests are "shallower" than you think. Let's say it was a digit span test - a string of digits is recited to a child and they have to recite it back. The list gets longer until they fail. Or they have to do it backwards too. I get flummoxed in this kind of situation but actually I'm very good at remembering long telephone numbers well very quickly.
I can do a digit span test in reverse fairly easily if I mentally write the numbers down and then "read" them back backwards. Whereas if I don't do this I can barely do it.
Ask the EP for more info rather than taking the tutor's word for it. Some people have a rather old-fashioned view of "dyslexia", particularly some dyslexia specialist tutors.
Your child must have left year 2 above average so why shouldn't he be so by the time of the elevenplus, given the right teaching.
What is the English test in your area and how well do you have to do to pass it?
I'd have a bash anyhow. If your child does have a "problem", which I doubt, any extra tutoring and work will surely only help, even if he does fail. We all take the risk of failing. Perhaps this tutor only wants to take on dead certs (who don't need tutoring anyhow). I'd try a different tutor, and hope that the EP report gets you some exam concessions if needed.
Re: working memory _ I thought there had been some recent research (proper stuff, not cranky rubbish) which shows that working memory can be improved through work that puts a load on working memory.
How was it tested? Some of these tests are "shallower" than you think. Let's say it was a digit span test - a string of digits is recited to a child and they have to recite it back. The list gets longer until they fail. Or they have to do it backwards too. I get flummoxed in this kind of situation but actually I'm very good at remembering long telephone numbers well very quickly.
I can do a digit span test in reverse fairly easily if I mentally write the numbers down and then "read" them back backwards. Whereas if I don't do this I can barely do it.
Ask the EP for more info rather than taking the tutor's word for it. Some people have a rather old-fashioned view of "dyslexia", particularly some dyslexia specialist tutors.
Your child must have left year 2 above average so why shouldn't he be so by the time of the elevenplus, given the right teaching.
What is the English test in your area and how well do you have to do to pass it?
I'd have a bash anyhow. If your child does have a "problem", which I doubt, any extra tutoring and work will surely only help, even if he does fail. We all take the risk of failing. Perhaps this tutor only wants to take on dead certs (who don't need tutoring anyhow). I'd try a different tutor, and hope that the EP report gets you some exam concessions if needed.
Re: Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
Thank you for taking the time to reply. He did indeed do a digit span test and he can recall up to f numbers forward but only 3 backwards.
I am being told that the area that the school are planning to work on with him are his phonics and that should solve the problem. Are you able to take a look at my sons report and give an opinion on it please? I am due to meet with school this week to go over what they are going to do for him.
I am being told that the area that the school are planning to work on with him are his phonics and that should solve the problem. Are you able to take a look at my sons report and give an opinion on it please? I am due to meet with school this week to go over what they are going to do for him.
Re: Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
I'm afraid I'm not an EP so I don't think I would be much use interpreting the report. Do you have access to the EP again or not?
When you say that his levels have not changed much at school this year does this apply to maths as much as English? It may well be that the whole class has not moved on much. I'm disappointed with my year 3 child's improvement in maths this year - one sub-level between Easter 2011 and Easter 2012 - but she's in the top group and the homework is never difficult, so I'm assuming they are just not ploughing through the material and it's nothing to do with her as such. It's a pain.
I would want to understand more about the working memory and processing speed thing - what it really means. If it really was going to impede his process it seems strange that he came out of year 2 above average.
The thing that strikes me most of all from the results you give is the difference between verbal comprehension and reading comprehension. It means that he would understand the same material far better if it was read to him than if he was reading it for himself. To me this means the school may well be right when they say that work on his phonics will help; in effect what could be happening at the moment is that he is putting so much effort into "decoding" the words that he has less "capacity" left for understanding the text, or that he is making so many errors when he reads that the meaning is lost.
How does his reading strike you? The school results would suggest that his reading is OK (level 3 in year 3 suggests a good reader) but I'm not really sure how schools decide on NC levels for reading. As he is bright he might have been able to compensate for his poor reading in a written comprehension test of NC type, if you see what I mean.
If you think phonics help might be the right thing - tell us more about his reading for us to work this one out - then you need to be sure that the school is going to follow a good programme at the right pace for him. For example 10 minutes once a week of Toe by Toe will be of no use. Read Poppit's thread on this forum.
If he's a really good reader, and can read words he has not seen before pretty accurately, then school is barking up the wrong tree.
Hope this helps. Also need to know more about the 11plus tests you are aiming at.
When you say that his levels have not changed much at school this year does this apply to maths as much as English? It may well be that the whole class has not moved on much. I'm disappointed with my year 3 child's improvement in maths this year - one sub-level between Easter 2011 and Easter 2012 - but she's in the top group and the homework is never difficult, so I'm assuming they are just not ploughing through the material and it's nothing to do with her as such. It's a pain.
I would want to understand more about the working memory and processing speed thing - what it really means. If it really was going to impede his process it seems strange that he came out of year 2 above average.
The thing that strikes me most of all from the results you give is the difference between verbal comprehension and reading comprehension. It means that he would understand the same material far better if it was read to him than if he was reading it for himself. To me this means the school may well be right when they say that work on his phonics will help; in effect what could be happening at the moment is that he is putting so much effort into "decoding" the words that he has less "capacity" left for understanding the text, or that he is making so many errors when he reads that the meaning is lost.
How does his reading strike you? The school results would suggest that his reading is OK (level 3 in year 3 suggests a good reader) but I'm not really sure how schools decide on NC levels for reading. As he is bright he might have been able to compensate for his poor reading in a written comprehension test of NC type, if you see what I mean.
If you think phonics help might be the right thing - tell us more about his reading for us to work this one out - then you need to be sure that the school is going to follow a good programme at the right pace for him. For example 10 minutes once a week of Toe by Toe will be of no use. Read Poppit's thread on this forum.
If he's a really good reader, and can read words he has not seen before pretty accurately, then school is barking up the wrong tree.
Hope this helps. Also need to know more about the 11plus tests you are aiming at.
Re: Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
What have you decided? I think you should bash on; your son is bright.
Re: Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
This was my sonHarrysmum wrote:By November last year his levels had not changed since Easter
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... 33&t=15734" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He passed the exam for SGS (which included an english element) and reached a level 5 by the end of KS2.
Don't give up hope and do what you think is right, you know your child better than any teacher or tutor.
Re: Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
Quite. If really he had learned nothing during that period you should consider not taking him to school every day!!
Re: Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
I am actually considering moving schools and so am starting to look at alternatives. I think he could reach his potential in an independent school. The question is will he be ok if the move is just for two years?
Re: Why shouldn't my ds be able to pass his 11+?
It has to be a school that can see that he is bright and is willing to do some "catch-up" with him. If he just gets grouped where is now and moved on at an average pace (or less) you won't get the success you are wanting. It so depends on the school.
Two years should not in itself be a problem. It's a long time in the life of a child.
If you work full-time the solution is so different from if you don't. If you don't you can do so much at home yourself to make the difference (including "health" days a la Scarlett, or flexi-schooling).
Unless I have mixed threads up, one of the issues was reading wasn't it? Depending on the way reading is taught at the independent school you are considering, you may or may not make the big headway you are hoping for.
Two years should not in itself be a problem. It's a long time in the life of a child.
If you work full-time the solution is so different from if you don't. If you don't you can do so much at home yourself to make the difference (including "health" days a la Scarlett, or flexi-schooling).
Unless I have mixed threads up, one of the issues was reading wasn't it? Depending on the way reading is taught at the independent school you are considering, you may or may not make the big headway you are hoping for.