To tutor or not to tutor
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[/quote]Before anyone goes off on one I am not criticising GS schools or "my schools better than yours"!My point was if a child can get into the most selective school with ease but not get into GS then the system is seriously flawed.
Although in Barnet they are only two GSs (HBS for girls, QE for boys) and consequently only a tiny proportion gets in, your point is valid. This is because in the case of independent schools you have to get through the obstacle of money before you face the obstacle of academic selection. Hence competition in terms of academic ability is by definition less strenous in ID schools than it is in grammar schools, unless you are in an area where the latter far outnumber the former.
And by the way I have nothing against money, only against those people than make more than I do!
sj355
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Chelmsford mum
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My - how this thread grew whilst I was at work!
My point T.i.p.s.y really was that whilst I feel confident for your son, I wouldn't want anyone else reading this thread to take at face value the idea that a "bright child" can get in without prep.
As has been said, Essex and particularly Colchester and Chemsford select what they identify as the top 5% - 10 % academically.Obviously there are areas with more grammars so we are talking the top 25%.Those may be possible to get into with less prep.
DD1 is a "maths kind of girl" She got through to maths olympiads out of her year group (ie early) Not boasting btw as this has nothing to do with me, some kind of genetic throw back I think! Therefore VR came totally naturally to her and speed at it too.I think that your son is prob more able at maths than her from what you have said in other threads, so I think those two papers(maths and vr) will not be a prob for him.It might be worth doing a VR paper of the highest available standard(NFER now GLA) to check speed.Please note that the actual test is harder as it has more of the code type questions and is potentially more time consuming.I remember both girls finished with 15 minutes to spare at home but with about 5 in the real thing.
Only you will know about English re your son.Some years have been nasty e.g the legendary "Tess" paper.
I suppose what I am saying is that it seems to be that your son is exceptionally bright as indicated by his I.Q (on other threads) and bright in the area that the test focuses on e.g maths and logic based reasoning.That part of his brain is exceptionally high functioning.
Other children , like DD2 in our case, is generally bright but not super exceptional.She needed practice and really more than I gave her.
I wouldn't want anyone reading this to underestimate the need, in most cases, for familiarisation with the types of papers.
Again I stress that I still am baffled by people I have met who started paying for tuition two - three years before the exam. that seems like overkill to me.However if you have a child who may buckle under exam pressure or who needs to speed up in VR , I would recommend preparing.
Just my opinion of course
My point T.i.p.s.y really was that whilst I feel confident for your son, I wouldn't want anyone else reading this thread to take at face value the idea that a "bright child" can get in without prep.
As has been said, Essex and particularly Colchester and Chemsford select what they identify as the top 5% - 10 % academically.Obviously there are areas with more grammars so we are talking the top 25%.Those may be possible to get into with less prep.
DD1 is a "maths kind of girl" She got through to maths olympiads out of her year group (ie early) Not boasting btw as this has nothing to do with me, some kind of genetic throw back I think! Therefore VR came totally naturally to her and speed at it too.I think that your son is prob more able at maths than her from what you have said in other threads, so I think those two papers(maths and vr) will not be a prob for him.It might be worth doing a VR paper of the highest available standard(NFER now GLA) to check speed.Please note that the actual test is harder as it has more of the code type questions and is potentially more time consuming.I remember both girls finished with 15 minutes to spare at home but with about 5 in the real thing.
Only you will know about English re your son.Some years have been nasty e.g the legendary "Tess" paper.
I suppose what I am saying is that it seems to be that your son is exceptionally bright as indicated by his I.Q (on other threads) and bright in the area that the test focuses on e.g maths and logic based reasoning.That part of his brain is exceptionally high functioning.
Other children , like DD2 in our case, is generally bright but not super exceptional.She needed practice and really more than I gave her.
I wouldn't want anyone reading this to underestimate the need, in most cases, for familiarisation with the types of papers.
Again I stress that I still am baffled by people I have met who started paying for tuition two - three years before the exam. that seems like overkill to me.However if you have a child who may buckle under exam pressure or who needs to speed up in VR , I would recommend preparing.
Just my opinion of course
My son received some tutoring for his 11+ and was successful in getting a place at GS. The school was heavily oversubscribed (aprox 650 for 11 places) and the tutoring helped in terms of speed and familiarisation. I don't know if he would have got in without it but I do know that he is excelling now that he is there.
Is it fair for chidren to be tutored or coached? I don't know. Does it discriminate against those that can't afford tutoring? Probably, but the problem is that once one child is tutored it takes a brave parent to say that they won't tutor/coach because if a child isn't familiar with the format or speed required they will be at a disadvantage and other 'less bright' children may well get the place due to the tutoring/coaching.
I would think that increasing the number of academically selective schools would allow access to more 'disadvantaged' children by decreasing the oversubscription and as a result reducing the demand for children to be heavily tutored.
Is it fair for chidren to be tutored or coached? I don't know. Does it discriminate against those that can't afford tutoring? Probably, but the problem is that once one child is tutored it takes a brave parent to say that they won't tutor/coach because if a child isn't familiar with the format or speed required they will be at a disadvantage and other 'less bright' children may well get the place due to the tutoring/coaching.
I would think that increasing the number of academically selective schools would allow access to more 'disadvantaged' children by decreasing the oversubscription and as a result reducing the demand for children to be heavily tutored.
round here, you have to coach. Since the GS test can be prepared for, people will. Not to jump on that band wagon disadvantages your child. We've hardly been obsessive, just aware of the very different starts some children get at primary level.
It's all got a bit crazy.
For there are a great number of local independents, some of which have extra classes factored in just to cater for more children whom the schools know will not go on to the upper school. These children get taught VR (which forms the basis of our GS selection tests) on a daily basis. In addition, they attend the tutors - my friend is one, drafted in by one of the independents to supplement their own VR with even more after school. She managed to get loads of them into grammars last year, none of whom, she said, were anything special, just had spent a childhood muttering "if ZL = RT then QX must be ..."
A possibly thorny point is that there are no catchments for our grammars, indeed they are "plagued" by phony-addressed wannahaves from up to a hundred miles away impacting on the social make up of some of them. The only way that parents who cannot afford independent school fees can feel confident of giving their child a chance against the children at these private schools is to offer some sort of tutoring, whether administered themselves, or via a tutor.
Mine have not been hot housed, they have hunkered down once a week in a kitchen with a fab older lady and 5 or 6 other children. She does it for a fiver and has a very old fashioned approach. Firm but fair. My boys think she's great, other children quail at the lack of automatic stickers which seems to have become the norm in a lot of state primary teaching (sitting up straight? nab a sticker, job done). She told me that the private schools round here have started their VR campaigns in Y3, that they've "stolen a march on <me>." My older boy is at GS in Y7, but ole credit cruncho will make things tougher for my other one come this November when it is his turn.
State schools meanwhile are crippled by the dumbing down of the national curriculum, and often the bright are hung out to dry, having attained the meagre level expected of them. I'm happy enough for my boy to have to help others from time to time, because he needs to learn to share and be involved. Education is not merely me me me at the expense of a wider awareness of others. But there is a limit.
And he, who can do impressively complex mental arithmetic - well, I'm impressed (say, 4 x 137 + 3 x 129, then take the lot from 2000, all in his head in very little time) has recently been given "targets" to concentrate on "addition within numbers up to 100." See what I mean? Imagine my rage. And this is at one of the Sunday Times Top 500 Primaries in the country. Any time not wasted on Nat Curr is squandered on patronising targets such as these which can be tabulated and "prove" some sort of pointless progress.
I refuse to be daunted by what could be taken as boasts by those in very different positions of having uber-naturally talented children. Perhaps they are, and good luck to you. Smuggery ain't my lot and sometimes I find the assertions made on these public forums almost shocking. I know my boy is clever enough, but he's also random as many a ten year old is and have to familiarise him, at least, with the papers he's likely to encounter, or I'm merely slinging him out to slaughter and all the kids who have had 45 mins a day VR coaching since Y3 will trample all over him in triumphant receipt of a place to which they are not necessarily more entitled to academically. They've just got richer parents.
It's all got a bit crazy.
For there are a great number of local independents, some of which have extra classes factored in just to cater for more children whom the schools know will not go on to the upper school. These children get taught VR (which forms the basis of our GS selection tests) on a daily basis. In addition, they attend the tutors - my friend is one, drafted in by one of the independents to supplement their own VR with even more after school. She managed to get loads of them into grammars last year, none of whom, she said, were anything special, just had spent a childhood muttering "if ZL = RT then QX must be ..."
A possibly thorny point is that there are no catchments for our grammars, indeed they are "plagued" by phony-addressed wannahaves from up to a hundred miles away impacting on the social make up of some of them. The only way that parents who cannot afford independent school fees can feel confident of giving their child a chance against the children at these private schools is to offer some sort of tutoring, whether administered themselves, or via a tutor.
Mine have not been hot housed, they have hunkered down once a week in a kitchen with a fab older lady and 5 or 6 other children. She does it for a fiver and has a very old fashioned approach. Firm but fair. My boys think she's great, other children quail at the lack of automatic stickers which seems to have become the norm in a lot of state primary teaching (sitting up straight? nab a sticker, job done). She told me that the private schools round here have started their VR campaigns in Y3, that they've "stolen a march on <me>." My older boy is at GS in Y7, but ole credit cruncho will make things tougher for my other one come this November when it is his turn.
State schools meanwhile are crippled by the dumbing down of the national curriculum, and often the bright are hung out to dry, having attained the meagre level expected of them. I'm happy enough for my boy to have to help others from time to time, because he needs to learn to share and be involved. Education is not merely me me me at the expense of a wider awareness of others. But there is a limit.
And he, who can do impressively complex mental arithmetic - well, I'm impressed (say, 4 x 137 + 3 x 129, then take the lot from 2000, all in his head in very little time) has recently been given "targets" to concentrate on "addition within numbers up to 100." See what I mean? Imagine my rage. And this is at one of the Sunday Times Top 500 Primaries in the country. Any time not wasted on Nat Curr is squandered on patronising targets such as these which can be tabulated and "prove" some sort of pointless progress.
I refuse to be daunted by what could be taken as boasts by those in very different positions of having uber-naturally talented children. Perhaps they are, and good luck to you. Smuggery ain't my lot and sometimes I find the assertions made on these public forums almost shocking. I know my boy is clever enough, but he's also random as many a ten year old is and have to familiarise him, at least, with the papers he's likely to encounter, or I'm merely slinging him out to slaughter and all the kids who have had 45 mins a day VR coaching since Y3 will trample all over him in triumphant receipt of a place to which they are not necessarily more entitled to academically. They've just got richer parents.
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Looking for help
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I would also urge people to tutor - otherwise they may find themselves in our position, for which I could kick myself.
My youngest was unsuccesful in his 11+ exam - I can only attribute this to our lack of coaching. This is sadly nothing to do with us not being able to afford it or not caring. This is because he is our youngest by 5 years, and in the time my older 3 children sat and passed the 11+ people did not really coach to the extent that they do now, however we failed to realise that this is what is happening.
Our youngest child is by far our most able, but he will not be able to have the same education as his siblings due to the fact that the information given by the GS themselves is that a few weeks familiarisation is all that is required.
What an absolute load of nonesense. If only we had found this site earlier, what a difference that would have made to us. But I would also recommend at the very least 1 year's intensive coaching, because that is what people are doing (no matter what they say they are doing!)
Rgds,
LFH
My youngest was unsuccesful in his 11+ exam - I can only attribute this to our lack of coaching. This is sadly nothing to do with us not being able to afford it or not caring. This is because he is our youngest by 5 years, and in the time my older 3 children sat and passed the 11+ people did not really coach to the extent that they do now, however we failed to realise that this is what is happening.
Our youngest child is by far our most able, but he will not be able to have the same education as his siblings due to the fact that the information given by the GS themselves is that a few weeks familiarisation is all that is required.
What an absolute load of nonesense. If only we had found this site earlier, what a difference that would have made to us. But I would also recommend at the very least 1 year's intensive coaching, because that is what people are doing (no matter what they say they are doing!)
Rgds,
LFH
Here! here! Milla I can't agree with you more!
I really feel for you LFH thats a horrid situation to find yourself in.
I am sure that my DC could have passed the 11+ without coaching but it wasn't a risk I thought worth taking, particularly as the GS my DS had set his heart on was a super selective. As it was he had a nasty fall from his bike on the morning of the maths test and that (according to his teacher) possibly cost him quite a few points, had he not been tutored this could have been disastrous.
I'm sure the 11+ wasn't designed to be that way but unfortunately the precedent to coach has been set and you may find yourself disadvantaging even the brightest child by not jumping on the tutoring band wagon.
I really feel for you LFH thats a horrid situation to find yourself in.
I am sure that my DC could have passed the 11+ without coaching but it wasn't a risk I thought worth taking, particularly as the GS my DS had set his heart on was a super selective. As it was he had a nasty fall from his bike on the morning of the maths test and that (according to his teacher) possibly cost him quite a few points, had he not been tutored this could have been disastrous.
I'm sure the 11+ wasn't designed to be that way but unfortunately the precedent to coach has been set and you may find yourself disadvantaging even the brightest child by not jumping on the tutoring band wagon.
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Looking for help
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It is crazy - but these are the lengths people are going to nowadays.
I don't agree with them, but it depends on how much you want the place.
If we had known about how much tuition was going on, we would have pushed our son to do as much as everyone else, but it's not easy to find out what's going on, particularly if only a couple of children from your primary school are sitting the test.
However he will do well at his next school - he will be in top sets and his teachers will love him - he's always trying to do his best, and I will be able to report back and say that the comprehensive system is wonderful, better than grammar, here's hoping, anyway
LFH
I don't agree with them, but it depends on how much you want the place.
If we had known about how much tuition was going on, we would have pushed our son to do as much as everyone else, but it's not easy to find out what's going on, particularly if only a couple of children from your primary school are sitting the test.
However he will do well at his next school - he will be in top sets and his teachers will love him - he's always trying to do his best, and I will be able to report back and say that the comprehensive system is wonderful, better than grammar, here's hoping, anyway
LFH
