National Grammar Schools Ass vs Grammar Schools Heads Ass

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Chelmsford mum
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:16 pm

Post by Chelmsford mum »

I think I agree with you in part.
Some of the children in these families do have "lousy parents". Such parents exist in lots of settings .My own parents have not a qualification between them, but they did as the school asked and did basic things like listened to me read.Poverty is not a total excuse for everything.
However in my " real life", one of my roles is in Adult Literacy.I think it needs to be remembered that some parents are genuinely not capable of helping their child.I teach adults who range from total non readers to having spelling/ grammar problems.To varying degrees many of these parents would be unable to help their children.
Six years is sadly not enough to close the gap on their more privileged peers.
wonderwoman
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:07 pm

Post by wonderwoman »

Disadvantaged children come from a very wide range of homes including the wealthy: those who have alchoholic parents, witness domestic abuse, young carers with seriously ill parents or siblings, the list could go on. Also I have met teenage parents or non-reading adults who are excellent but may not have been able to give their children the best start pre-school. If you can't read it's difficult to encourage a toddler to read without help.
magwich2 wrote: I also think that after 6 or more years of full time education these children should have lost some of their initial disadvantages and should not have any further allowances made for them when it comes to secondary school selection.
IMO six years is a very short space of time to overcome such difficulties and what actually happens is that the gap widens. A place at a good school for children from difficult backgrounds can be a life saver and helps to break the cycle of disadvantage.

Sorry didn't realise I was repeating CM - got distracted cooking :!:
Sally Herts
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:06 pm
Location: Herts

Post by Sally Herts »

When I read of the amount of help people on this forum (including me!) give to their children, I think that is beyond the average person, let alone someone who is disadvantaged in any way :shock:

I am lucky enough to have been privately educated, and I have a degree. My child is bound to have an advantage in the 11+ exam - even if he doesn't pass :lol:

You only have to read the posts on this forum, to see the excellent grammar, spelling, style of argument, vocabulary etc, to know that our children cannot fail to have an advantage, irrespective of natural ability.
MasterChief
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:01 pm
Location: Maidstone

Post by MasterChief »

There are a great number of parents with whom we share the waiting area at our DC's school who seem to view their children as a burden. They seem to think that their sole responsibliity to their childrens' education is to send them to school and their involvement ends there.
One of DS's friends is the most polite,helpful,inquisitive,confident and intelligent children it has been my pleasure to meet but he was not put forward for the 11+ as his parents, and I quote him here,"didn't think I was clever enough". His extra-curricular activities are limited to those that others will take him to as his parents wont. He went to the cinema for the first time this year when he went with my son!
I hope and believe that this particular child will thrive where ever he ends up but for so many that you meet you struggle to see any future.
"We've got a date with Destiny and it looks like she's ordered the lobster."
MasterChief
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:01 pm
Location: Maidstone

Post by MasterChief »

Sally Herts wrote: You only have to read the posts on this forum, to see the excellent grammar, spelling...
I think we've been reading different posts because I've seen some awful spelling and I'm pretty sure they're not all typos. LOL :lol:
"We've got a date with Destiny and it looks like she's ordered the lobster."
Sally Herts
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:06 pm
Location: Herts

Post by Sally Herts »

Maybe I just can't spell myself, so don't see it :lol:

(I guess what I really mean is that the posts on this forum show that the people here are highly literate compared with the average person - not that we are perfect!)

How sad about your DS's friend. It's a pity that primary schools aren't able to "encourage" :shock: these parents.
mum3
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:27 am

Post by mum3 »

I think if the continuation of grammar schools is to be justified then they are going to have to address the problem of the 'disadvantaged' not getting a fair chance of admission and quite right too.

Obviously we, on this forum, are all committed and interested parents, but I think many of us know at least one child from a state primary school who probably could have gained a place at a grammar school HAD they been privy to the sort of information we have.

Counter that with the increase of children from the private sector, who are already advantaged, who are taking up places at grammar schools. The whole ethos of a 'grammar school education' surely is for the brightest children to gain the places, regardless of background, or parents ability to pay.

At my DCs' grammar school, already two have left to go to the private sector (one a major public school, other local independent) having decided after a little foray into the state sector, it wasn't quite what they expected (I won't say what!!). Now those places could have been given to children whose lives in the long run may well have been transformed by receiving a 'grammar school' education.

Obviously MY children may also be taking the place of someone more deserving, that is true, but it does no harm to actually make the admission procedure fairer all round.
Wallasey
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:28 am
Location: Wirral

Post by Wallasey »

I think that the disadvantages for children with difficult/unsupportive home life actually become worse as they grow older. I have seen children, contemporaries of my DS1, who were bright, well motivated and involved at primary school, become less motivated and achieving each year at secondary school, with some now starting to become involved in unwanted behaviour such as smoking and getting into trouble. My DS has remarked himself on the difference in some of the boys, whereas his work and behaviour is showing the benefit of support from home despite never having been a high flyer. Of course these are adolescent boys - year 9 - so many of the changes can be down to hormones, and I could be in for a dreadful shock when my son joins the others behind the bike shed!
2togo
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:50 pm

Post by 2togo »

mum3

I think you are right. If the grammar schools become the sole preserve of middle class kids, whose parents are passionate about them & their educational opportunities, kids who may have been in the private system or who may have that option at secondary school level (like mine) then the grammar schools lose the justification for their existence. I feel uncomfortable about the fact that my OH & I can & will pay for education if we believe that by doing so we can improve on what the state offers. But fundamentally that seems wrong. Good education, like good health care, shouldn't be money / or parental support dependent.

One of my concerns about comprehensive education is that in certain local "sink" schools, whilst they do offer great things for the dedictated gifted student, there is a long tail. So if you have a child who naturally gravitates towards the lowest common denominator (naming no names here but, let's say, not a totally unfirmiliar characteristic in our household...), then there's a long old way to fall.
pippi
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:33 am
Location: Bucks

Post by pippi »

mum3 wrote:I think if the continuation of grammar schools is to be justified then they are going to have to address the problem of the 'disadvantaged' not getting a fair chance of admission and quite right too.
I agree - I also find it bizarre that the Govt is setting "wider access" targets for Universities but not for state funded selective schools: if anything shouldn't it be the other way round?

Even allowing for the oddities of the algorithms, I'm surprised the post-16 "value added" is below average for grammar schools. Possibly evidence against the whole idea of trying to rank ability at age 10-11.

I'd be interested to know who initiated the meetings between the Ministry and the Heads Association.
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