What to do if younger child isn't right for GS?

[wonderwoman]

Well I think there are some children at our GS who, for want of a better term, find it hard to keep up. I'm not saying they don't cope or that they don't enjoy it, because I've known some who have loved the school but know they struggle with the work, I've also known quite a few who have transferred to the secondary modern. I also acknowledge our area is a little different as we only have a grammar or a secondary modern.
I have children at both schools, all our friends' children attend these 2 schools aswell, unless they are away at boarding schools. There are no other local schools.
Some children at GS find the 13 higher level GCSEs - all in one sitting - difficult to say the least. The homework demands for a child who only just passed, or who has a specific learning difficulty, are huge. Course work is being scaled back, but it's still a lot of work for many children. There is no flexibility on number of GCSEs, despite every year parents writing or going in and that's just my circle of friends. So it's a struggle for some, they often leave at Y11 and I know that after all their hard work a crop of mostly Cs and a few Bs is disappointing. Often the school does not have 100% pass rate. Which I find just shocking when even the very weakest must be above average. If these children had just failed the 11+ they would have gone to the secondary modern and taken 8, 9 or 10 GCSEs, much more manageable, just as useful and the child might have gained higher grades.

[Milla]

that's madness! I thought all these things were manipulated to the nth degree to suit tables of measurement. At our grammars (super selectives) they only take 10. I say only, but you know what I mean. I took ten, it was fine. 2 or bits of 2 (I don't get all this modular stuff yet) in y10 and the rest in y11.

At Pate's, where my little one is going in Sept they are changing things to despatch KS3 in 2 years, leaving 3 years for GCSEs and "enrichment" (a word which could quite happily go in there in teh coalition abolition thread). Presumably the "keeping up" will then apply if they're doing 3 years work in 2. But otherwise ... still don't get the keeping up thing. What are they rushing through for?. If it is to secure far too many GCSEs and is not working then why? and if they're only doing 10 like you'd do at the comp then why the notion of not being able to manage?

Naturally, I hadn't realised this duel ranking of GCSEs, higher and lower - does the rest of the world understand this? is it just me? is it all part of governmenty targetty meaningless nonsense?? is it a sop to those who should be allowed to do something vocational anyway??

I'd thought (from another strand somewhere, whistles for the efficient Amber!) that it was more detrimental to get more passes at a lower level at GCSE than fewer at a higher level.

And, finally, what happened to enjoying the actual learning process?

[Amber]

And, finally, what happened to enjoying the actual learning process?

Tut tut Milla - good job you're not a teacher.


Higher level GCSE = roughly equivalent to old 'O' level (though don't ask me if it is as hard, you won't like the answer) and foundation= equivalent to CSE. Higher will get you grades A*-C if you do well; the highest you can get on a foundation paper is C. Grammars tend only to do higher, as do the higher sets in other schools. The papers are sat on the same day and are often very similar, at least in the early questions, with the more demanding stuff being added to the higher paper.

As for cutting KS3 to spend longer on GCSEs - that is an interesting shift in emphasis.(Did I understand that correctly?) I should have thought that spending 3 years on what are essentially 2 year courses would not be what a grammar school would be doing, though in practice I think most schools start at least some of the GCSE teaching in Year 9. I hope and expect that the 'enrichment' would gain emphasis (and maybe even bring in some of the 'enjoyment' to which you so optimistically refer, Milla ) rather than drilling in exam preparation.

[Tolstoy]

Naturally, I hadn't realised this duel ranking of GCSEs, higher and lower - does the rest of the world understand this?

No a lot of people don't know about it. It basically means that if the children take the lower levels they are only taught enough work to get a maximum of a B at GCSE. So in my day when you opted to do a CSE say rather than an O'level then you knew the score. These days some children, my niece being one of them, are put into groups and their parents are totally unaware of the fact that they can't get the top grades. The problem is if you have been dossing a bit for the first couple of years in secondary, my niece again, you can be put into these groups and there is no escape. In many ways it is far more restricting than the old O'level/CSE system.

Edit just read Ambers post and seems you can only get a C so worse than even I suspected

[Amber]

I can't really agree that it is more restricting, Tolstoy, as the syllabus is essentially the same (not so with CSE/O level) just more basic at foundation level, where the max grade is C. If schools are using all the predictive tools at their disposal (YELLIS tests and the like, which are supposed to look at potential performance) then children should be able to get away with a bit of 'dossing' for a year or 2; I do not think children who are able but just a bit lazy generally get put into foundation tier sets. I have been working with a student who is taking Year 10 foundation science modules in a couple of weeks, but I have been teaching her using her own book and the equivalent higher level book to give her just a bit extra - the topics are even given the same unit numbers. The advantage (well, there has to be one somewhere) is that if someone is doing higher level and then falls behind, perhaps through illness, all is not lost and they can take a foundation tier exam. This flexibility was not there in the old system, where the syllabuses could be wildly different. It is harder though not impossible to do it the other way round too, though with modular exams and coursework/ISAs it is a bit of a headache.

But I do agree that parents need to know about the system at around Year 8, so they can ask the right questions at school, especially if their children have aspirations towards higher education.

[Tolstoy]

My sister had her daughter moved when she found out what was going on but not without a fight. Freya who posts on this site ended up in a similar position with her DD and I believe it was one of the reasons she opted to go independent with DS. So there's two who shouldn't have been put into foundation level and whose parents had not been informed at the time.

The problem is that with all these half this and half that, foundation courses, NVQ's etc parents haven't a clue what is going on when it comes to qualifications and what their children are doing. A friend who is a secondary teacher herself found it difficult to put a number on the qualifications her daughter is doing when I asked her recently.

So okay they are not more restrictive but they are definitely just as restrictive yet people are not aware of this whereas they were with the old system.

[Milla]

between you that's beautifully explained and grist to my mill to feel vindicated in not knowing what on earth is going on. So you go for higher or lower, still both called GCSE (cf clear diff betw CSE and O in our day) but a capped max mark in the lower.

Yes, Amber, I had toyed with the idea of going into teaching but a glimpse at the way education is going deterred me. Am NOT good with charts, forms, ticking things. Bo-ring.

And the thinking behind doing GCSEs over 3 years at Pate's rather than 2 is explained here:
http://www.pates.gloucs.sch.uk/Welcome_ ... udents.pdf

[Nathair]

I know it's going back a bit, but when I did GCSE's in 1996 we had higher and foundation tiers. The most you could get in the foundation was a B. I remember it well, because although we were in the top set only half the class were put in for the higher paper, the rest of us did the foundation. When my friends mum found out she went in and kicked up a huge fuss and got her daughter moved into the group doing the higher paper. When the results came through mine said: GCSE Mathematics Grade B. Hers said: GCSE Mathematics Grade C. There was no mention of which levels we had sat, and I always thought if her mum had left well enough alone, she would have got a B on the foundation paper and had another B at GCSE.

[Freya]

Tolstoy - you are correct. At our local comprehensive, our DD was put into class 4 out of 6 streamed classes for maths (foundation level - grade C max) despite having a level 5 in her end of primary SATS and despite being predicted A grades for science GCSE. We were not aware of this - and we are pretty switched on parents. After a fight we had her moved to class 2 but she had already missed much of the higher level course content and it was a struggle for her to catch up. In the end she achieved a grade B but was only a couple of marks short of the A in mocks.

You are also correct in saying that this was one of the reasons we sent DS to Independent School. The difference is marked. MidYIS test scores and detailed interpretations were shared and discussed with us, we have monthly grade and effort reviews and termly reports as well as parents evenings. We feel that we know exactly where DS is in each subject and we're confident that the school would talk to us if his performance / achievement changed.

Sorry if this is a bit OT but after our experience I feel it's so important, wherever your DC is, to make sure you are informed exactly what is going on with them and not be afraid to challenge. To be honest, with a child who may not be a high flyer, I would choose a school where I thought communication and the seeking of parental involvement with each step of the child's progress through the school was equally important to the school rather than automatically go for the prestige of the grammar.

[Y]

I believe that the foundation/higher issue actually allows for some fine tuning. Where a number of papers are sat, in some subjects you can sit some papers at foundation and some at higher - so a student who only sits one foundation paper, but the rest at higher, may still have access to the A grade (just not the A*).