Regional variation in exam level and academic standard ?
Moderators: Section Moderators, Forum Moderators
-
Guest
Ash, I just wanted to say that I agree with what you say. I can't see how Buckinghamshire with all its grammar schools can have such a high pass mark. Ridiculous figures are bandied about quite often and I think this is very misleading. That you have to get 95% and such like. Although getting 95% is fine in a practise paper in the home situation (it gives both you and the child confidence), I think it very unlikely in the actual test. If scores are standardised any speculation on raw scores, is just that, speculation. The children could be scoring anything really - nobody knows. I always come back to the fact that some of these tests are very difficult and the children are only 10. Being an exceptionally clever ten year old isn't any everyday occurence, as any teacher will tell you, hence have 30% of children in Bucks scoring over 86% is incredible to me. This just doesn't happen in schools (and yes, I am a teacher).
Patricia, you seem to have a problem when people disagree with you - I am sure you will disagree with me, but I just want other parents to see that your child needs to be above average, but probably not academically gifted to get into grammar school. The number of academically gifted children is very low indeed and kids in grammars tend to be clever, but not brilliant.
Just to put an addendum to this post, I don't live in Buckinghamshire and my experience is from another area of the country where children sit an 11 plus. I have taught in a grammar school and I have found some children to be clever, some to be just above average and perhaps 2 to be academically gifted.
Patricia, you seem to have a problem when people disagree with you - I am sure you will disagree with me, but I just want other parents to see that your child needs to be above average, but probably not academically gifted to get into grammar school. The number of academically gifted children is very low indeed and kids in grammars tend to be clever, but not brilliant.
Just to put an addendum to this post, I don't live in Buckinghamshire and my experience is from another area of the country where children sit an 11 plus. I have taught in a grammar school and I have found some children to be clever, some to be just above average and perhaps 2 to be academically gifted.
Dear Guest
I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me on opinions. I do have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me on facts.
I will keep to the figure of 86% an educated opinion shared by many in Buckinghamshire, your area is obviously different.
The minimum standard is so high probably because, we do not have comprehensives, your child either goes to an upper [ GCSE results in the region of 20% - 40%] or a grammar [ 97/98/100%] As a result of this big difference, parents scramble to get their children into a grammar. Therefore children are heavily tutored, by parents or tutors, which will of course keep the pass rate at a high level.
I have never said a child has to be academically gifted to get a grammar place. I agree with you, need to be above average.
Patricia
I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me on opinions. I do have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me on facts.
I will keep to the figure of 86% an educated opinion shared by many in Buckinghamshire, your area is obviously different.
The minimum standard is so high probably because, we do not have comprehensives, your child either goes to an upper [ GCSE results in the region of 20% - 40%] or a grammar [ 97/98/100%] As a result of this big difference, parents scramble to get their children into a grammar. Therefore children are heavily tutored, by parents or tutors, which will of course keep the pass rate at a high level.
I have never said a child has to be academically gifted to get a grammar place. I agree with you, need to be above average.
Patricia
-
Guest
I don't want to argue with anybody, least of all on an internet message board as it is so ridiculous. However, I still believe that very high numbers are being bandied about. Children are "heavily" coached where I live too, but research has shown that "heavy" coaching can only increase scores by a small amount and excessive coaching can only improve scores over a short period of time. I believe you are a tutor - so clearly you are involved in such tutoring and are not going to disagree with it.
I am just a teacher in a secondary school and I agree with when Ash said earlier on in the thread. We cannot say that children need to get a score of 86, 96 or 100%. We do not know as the children are compared against each other in the test and their scores are standardised which has the effect of disguising the raw score. I agree that you should be aiming high in practise, but to say that a child needs to get a specific score in the actual test, is misleading.
You can snipe back if you wish, I don't really mind, in fact, it is quite fun.
I am just a teacher in a secondary school and I agree with when Ash said earlier on in the thread. We cannot say that children need to get a score of 86, 96 or 100%. We do not know as the children are compared against each other in the test and their scores are standardised which has the effect of disguising the raw score. I agree that you should be aiming high in practise, but to say that a child needs to get a specific score in the actual test, is misleading.
You can snipe back if you wish, I don't really mind, in fact, it is quite fun.
Dear guest
Firstly I don't 'snipe' we are all free to have a say as long as its not rude, I will always be first to admit my mistakes. Look at some of the posts where I have apologised
I have not talked of 96/100% pass rates, I agree these are high for a minimum pass.
I agree, nobody knows the true minimum, we have to go on instinct and what teachers/heads say. based on years of marking the raw scores of the real tests in Bucks. Parents need to be aiming high in home practice tests [ as you agreed ]
Arguing is not 'fun' if parents are mislead into thinking lower results will get a grammar school place in Bucks.
Coaching, marking a test before coaching and at various intervals in between, show a significant increase in scores
Patricia
Firstly I don't 'snipe' we are all free to have a say as long as its not rude, I will always be first to admit my mistakes. Look at some of the posts where I have apologised
I have not talked of 96/100% pass rates, I agree these are high for a minimum pass.
I agree, nobody knows the true minimum, we have to go on instinct and what teachers/heads say. based on years of marking the raw scores of the real tests in Bucks. Parents need to be aiming high in home practice tests [ as you agreed ]
Arguing is not 'fun' if parents are mislead into thinking lower results will get a grammar school place in Bucks.
Coaching, marking a test before coaching and at various intervals in between, show a significant increase in scores
Patricia
-
Mel
Have to agree with Patricia that the % required must be nearer the higher end of the scale but more like 80-82% and possibly less if the child has a Summer birthday.
Put it into perspective. In Bucks there are 80 questions. Do you really think a child should pass if they get more then 15 of those questions wrong? Afterall the test is to determine the clever children, not the gifted but clever and thats fact. It doesnt mean Grammar schools have all of the Cleverer children as lets face it, most who pass have been tutored and a child who does not have tutoring may miss out because of that. That child could still indeed be the cleverer child!
(As for tutoring, I believe the child has to have the ability in the first place in order to reach what is needed to passdifferent subject sorry).
The only thing I would say is that these figures can be effected each year by the number of children taking the test who are not really expected to pass at all. Obviously the more children scoring lower, the less the average is going to be which in turn will effect the pass score needed.
Mel
Patricia
Can I ask you something. When we opted for JH we were told that criteria is catchment first irrespective of the pass aslong as its over the 121 required and that this rule applies to all schools in Bucks. I am not concerened about my son getting a place as, as you know he scored 124 and we live in catchment its just a friend mentioned to me that it may be the same in as in Slough if the school is over subscribed they may only take the very highest scores. Any thoughts??
Put it into perspective. In Bucks there are 80 questions. Do you really think a child should pass if they get more then 15 of those questions wrong? Afterall the test is to determine the clever children, not the gifted but clever and thats fact. It doesnt mean Grammar schools have all of the Cleverer children as lets face it, most who pass have been tutored and a child who does not have tutoring may miss out because of that. That child could still indeed be the cleverer child!
(As for tutoring, I believe the child has to have the ability in the first place in order to reach what is needed to passdifferent subject sorry).
The only thing I would say is that these figures can be effected each year by the number of children taking the test who are not really expected to pass at all. Obviously the more children scoring lower, the less the average is going to be which in turn will effect the pass score needed.
Mel
Patricia
Can I ask you something. When we opted for JH we were told that criteria is catchment first irrespective of the pass aslong as its over the 121 required and that this rule applies to all schools in Bucks. I am not concerened about my son getting a place as, as you know he scored 124 and we live in catchment its just a friend mentioned to me that it may be the same in as in Slough if the school is over subscribed they may only take the very highest scores. Any thoughts??
Dear guest/Patricia,
I don't really want to get involved again in the argument pro/against coaching, which is THE argument that raises everyones blood pressure.
I just wanted to add that I do not believe that the 11+ in Bucks are easy either, as it may have come across in a prevoius post.
I believe strongly that it is necessary for children who thake the Bucks exam to get tutored to a high level, unless may be he/she is in the minority of the very gifted kids.
I am stopping here. I have already argued the case, won't do it again.
I don't really want to get involved again in the argument pro/against coaching, which is THE argument that raises everyones blood pressure.
I just wanted to add that I do not believe that the 11+ in Bucks are easy either, as it may have come across in a prevoius post.
I believe strongly that it is necessary for children who thake the Bucks exam to get tutored to a high level, unless may be he/she is in the minority of the very gifted kids.
I am stopping here. I have already argued the case, won't do it again.
-
Ash
-
KenR
Exam Scores - Freedom of Information Act
You can always try requesting the 11+ exam score results and standardisation under the Freedom of Information Act from the LEA. See
http://www.dca.gov.uk/foi/faqs.htm#part5 for details of how to go about it.
You can even do this by email. I would be interested to see how they how they respond or if they try to claim an exemption. By law they have to respond within 20 days.
I'm sure a lot of parents would like to hear how you get on!
Hope this helps.
http://www.dca.gov.uk/foi/faqs.htm#part5 for details of how to go about it.
You can even do this by email. I would be interested to see how they how they respond or if they try to claim an exemption. By law they have to respond within 20 days.
I'm sure a lot of parents would like to hear how you get on!
Hope this helps.
