Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
Moderators: Section Moderators, Forum Moderators
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
I think you have misunderstood, as far as I am concerned at least. My children learned through play, sure, but not play with me. I wasn't busy setting up little shops and play-based learning sessions. Oh no. What I did do was make sure the children had materials 'to hand' and then they pretty much directed themselves. OK, I made play dough, and obviously if they were cooking I was there and helping and showing and all that. We spent masses of time outdoors - walking, climbing things, just sort of being, but outside. What I did do was to provide different types of paper (not expensive - cheap stuff from places like IKEA; wallpaper, black paper etc) ; and then chalks, different kinds of paint, pens etc; construction toys, a calculator; books, obviously, which yes we read together (never them 'to' me). OK it is messy but what it is not is heavy on parental intervention. It was just out, and if they wanted to use it they could. I never said, 'let's paint today' but they could just do it if they wanted to. I happen to believe that one of the reasons all of my children are now (touch wood) very much self-sufficient and self-motivated is precisely because I did not spend their early and primary years hovering round them organising activities and worthy educational things for them. It is so hard to explain what is essentially a philosophy of life and family in a forum like this; the only reason I am even trying is to show that there is an alternative, and children left to be self-directed, in a supportive, loving and consistent environment, will find their own path.mystery wrote:Re. Belinda and Amber's posts, It's OK, but it's very hard to live up to if you've got a busy life and the school isn't great. .
Where I do agree with mystery is that every parent must do what they are comfortable with and parent in their own way. Kids can spot a fraud from 20 paces. Just as I could never have carted my lot off to Kumon or tennis lessons or French for babies, so many would hate the style I have used. You do what works for your family. But nothing will persuade me that a Year 3 child needs formal coaching in anything at all.
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
Well that's pretty much how my house is too, but there's so much paper, pencils, books, paints, craft stuff strewn around the house that they can't find anything they want to do ever, and have to think of something else to do instead. 
But, I think you are missing a big point. You are assuming that at any school, any year 3 child will have "found their correct level". What if you were in the unfortunate situation of seeing your child floundering at school, and you knew that it was something that some painting, cooking, keeping shop, or climbing trees was not going to solve. After all, a lot of what we need to know to be numerate and literate at a basic level is not something that a child is going to discover for themselves in the course of these activities, and there could be some reason, through absolutely no fault of their own, that a child has not grasped some things that they could have done in their earlier years at school.
I see this with year 5 and 6 children I volunteer with time and again. I'm teaching them stuff that my own children who are much younger already know and that they could have done much sooner. Their self esteem is low. The majority of their time in the classroom is a waste of time because the main thrust of the lesson is geared for children at a much "higher level". I personally think if someone had given a lot of them some appropriate time and one to one teaching ( a parent, volunteer, or member of staff) in year 1, 2 or 3 - call it "personal tutoring" or what you will, these children would be a lot happier. As it is , they go on to secondary school and flounder still further. It is very sad, and no amount of climbing trees, playing with play dough, or painting the walls with water on large brushes is going to help them.
I enjoy discussing these ideas on here, but I find it extremely irritating when my children get saddled with teachers who try to foist these views on to me and my children and make you feel bad for asking about your child's progress that year. We had one for both reception years. It was great for nursery, but why did someone have to build a reception classroom, pay a teacher, and tell us to take our children to school every day for that? Lovely for part of the day yes, but not the whole day, every day. They would have been better off at home talking to me. However, if you were working full-time at that point it wouldn't be an option.
You'll never know exactly what made your children the successful people they are now Amber, but one thing's for sure. If they spent their whole lives climbing trees and painting the paper the outcome would have been different. I'd rather my children chose that at 18 because they had the choice, rather than at 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 etc because of some vague notions of education.
This is not the OP situation clearly, but we don't know without information whether there could be a parallel. The child is thought to be bright, but we don't know whether they have received the teaching / enabling (which is what we go to school for whether it is based on constructivist theories or a more explicit, direct instruction approach) they need. I don't think you can give any categorical answers about "formal tuition" whatever that is, at any age.
But, I think you are missing a big point. You are assuming that at any school, any year 3 child will have "found their correct level". What if you were in the unfortunate situation of seeing your child floundering at school, and you knew that it was something that some painting, cooking, keeping shop, or climbing trees was not going to solve. After all, a lot of what we need to know to be numerate and literate at a basic level is not something that a child is going to discover for themselves in the course of these activities, and there could be some reason, through absolutely no fault of their own, that a child has not grasped some things that they could have done in their earlier years at school.
I see this with year 5 and 6 children I volunteer with time and again. I'm teaching them stuff that my own children who are much younger already know and that they could have done much sooner. Their self esteem is low. The majority of their time in the classroom is a waste of time because the main thrust of the lesson is geared for children at a much "higher level". I personally think if someone had given a lot of them some appropriate time and one to one teaching ( a parent, volunteer, or member of staff) in year 1, 2 or 3 - call it "personal tutoring" or what you will, these children would be a lot happier. As it is , they go on to secondary school and flounder still further. It is very sad, and no amount of climbing trees, playing with play dough, or painting the walls with water on large brushes is going to help them.
I enjoy discussing these ideas on here, but I find it extremely irritating when my children get saddled with teachers who try to foist these views on to me and my children and make you feel bad for asking about your child's progress that year. We had one for both reception years. It was great for nursery, but why did someone have to build a reception classroom, pay a teacher, and tell us to take our children to school every day for that? Lovely for part of the day yes, but not the whole day, every day. They would have been better off at home talking to me. However, if you were working full-time at that point it wouldn't be an option.
You'll never know exactly what made your children the successful people they are now Amber, but one thing's for sure. If they spent their whole lives climbing trees and painting the paper the outcome would have been different. I'd rather my children chose that at 18 because they had the choice, rather than at 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 etc because of some vague notions of education.
This is not the OP situation clearly, but we don't know without information whether there could be a parallel. The child is thought to be bright, but we don't know whether they have received the teaching / enabling (which is what we go to school for whether it is based on constructivist theories or a more explicit, direct instruction approach) they need. I don't think you can give any categorical answers about "formal tuition" whatever that is, at any age.
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
Thank you every one for your contribution. I think I need to clarify that if I actually flow with what the teachers teach in school then my dd2 will not be exceptionally bright. She would still be bright but she would not be fulfilling her potentials. I hear you all but I allow my dc play but I do have formal tutoring with them. I understand not everyone will subscribe to this but I strongly think a teacher with 30 children will never do enough to bring out the best in a child. Now, the other part is left for the parents, how you do this is left to individuals. Before my dd2 did her SAT we had practiced past questions and she told the teacher she had done them and had to be given a different one because she was told she knows the answers already. Some of you may not agree to this but it works for me and my girls. She is very keen to learn and honestly she thrives on it. Her sister is in yr 5 and we are practicing for 11+ and she wants to have a go. I've had to buy bond assessments for 7-8 after I posted this because she can not understand she is too young for it. How long can we play house, baking or shop with a child as keen to learn as this?
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
Ok, I think if we are reduced to calling my ideas 'some vague notions of education' then I shall withdraw from this thread. As a qualified teacher with some 20 years' experience behind me; as a colleague and friend of a head of a university Early Years Department and someone who, as I know you are mystery, is now half way through a Masters degree in Education; whatever my ideas are, they are more than 'some vague notions'. And personally I am happier that my kids painted and played and dressed up at 3 than I would be for them to want to do it at 18. Couldn't have given a monkey's what 'level' mine were at in Year 3: in most countries they would only just have gone to school.
To the OP- hope you find what you are looking for and that your DC is happy and successful. I am going back out to dig the garden with the help of my worm-seeking chickens.
To the OP- hope you find what you are looking for and that your DC is happy and successful. I am going back out to dig the garden with the help of my worm-seeking chickens.
-
suzanne
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
Thanks for sharing your views on here - I always find it interesting to read Amber & Mystery as it makes me think about how I go about things.
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
I am a bit of a chaotic mother, we never actually did " lessons" . My daughter wanted sums written out and then added beans ( too mean to buy counters) to workout the answers, she had an alphabet quilt cover and every night picked a letter and thought of all the words starting with that letter, she wanted to read. My soon just went " yeah, yeah, get on with it..". We cooked, we followed the seagull steps on the beach, walking like seagulls, we just had fun.
Not saying that you could do it now, but both of my children did a couple of practice papers and we went over the answers, showing how to do the ones they got wrong. This was a week or 2 before test.
Both passed, I don't know my daughter's marks, but my son had 140 in 2 papers and 130 odd in the other.
In my day job I am teaching children with SEN.
Just because one child can do something at 5, 6 or 7 doesn;t mean that another will be able to. The danger is judging one child by another's standard. Sometimes slow starters streak past on teh last stretch..
All children are different, all children are special and what works for one won't necessarily work for another, go with the flow.
eta ( with mod's hat on): similarly with adults, we all have different ideas and attitudes to education , and indeed life. Please respect other's opinions
Not saying that you could do it now, but both of my children did a couple of practice papers and we went over the answers, showing how to do the ones they got wrong. This was a week or 2 before test.
Both passed, I don't know my daughter's marks, but my son had 140 in 2 papers and 130 odd in the other.
In my day job I am teaching children with SEN.
Just because one child can do something at 5, 6 or 7 doesn;t mean that another will be able to. The danger is judging one child by another's standard. Sometimes slow starters streak past on teh last stretch..
All children are different, all children are special and what works for one won't necessarily work for another, go with the flow.
eta ( with mod's hat on): similarly with adults, we all have different ideas and attitudes to education , and indeed life. Please respect other's opinions
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
I think I just like to be prepared way before time and I worry If socks are not put out for school the night before. I might just take the relaxed attitude with dd2 but dd1 is very lax and needs constant prompting. Thanks y'all....your advice is invaluable.
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
Don't retire so easily Amber. You said that nothing would ever persuade you that a year 3 child could need "formal coaching". Well I don't know what you mean by formal, or by coaching.
I don't know anyone who wants the hardest maths, or the hardest reading books either. I think maybe unless you read the national curriculum for primary maths, look at standards across a lot of schools, and then visit our school and see what trivial nonsense a lot of children are being given to do in class and at home by some teachers (not all), you will never know quite why I'm saying what I'm saying. Maybe my school is an exception.
If a parent can see what's going on and do something about, what's the harm in that Amber? I think your children must have been luckier than us with their primary school. Everywhere else around here is full, full, full, our school just grabs every child they can and the numbers go up and up and the rubbish they teach increases by the day.
You can tell I am not pleased with school this week. Maybe it will improve, but unless some parents say what they think, will it really?
Year 3 children are 7 or 8, not 3 years old. Yes they might just have started school in some countries, but a lot of them will have learned a good deal more at home or in their kindergarten than many children do in a rubbish school here in years R, 1 and 2. Our system is not geared up to starting school at 7 or 8 so it's no good if a few teachers here and there take the approach that KS1 doesn't matter as there's plenty of time to catch up later. They are doing children a disservice with this approach, within the system within which we operate.
I don't know anyone who wants the hardest maths, or the hardest reading books either. I think maybe unless you read the national curriculum for primary maths, look at standards across a lot of schools, and then visit our school and see what trivial nonsense a lot of children are being given to do in class and at home by some teachers (not all), you will never know quite why I'm saying what I'm saying. Maybe my school is an exception.
If a parent can see what's going on and do something about, what's the harm in that Amber? I think your children must have been luckier than us with their primary school. Everywhere else around here is full, full, full, our school just grabs every child they can and the numbers go up and up and the rubbish they teach increases by the day.
You can tell I am not pleased with school this week. Maybe it will improve, but unless some parents say what they think, will it really?
Year 3 children are 7 or 8, not 3 years old. Yes they might just have started school in some countries, but a lot of them will have learned a good deal more at home or in their kindergarten than many children do in a rubbish school here in years R, 1 and 2. Our system is not geared up to starting school at 7 or 8 so it's no good if a few teachers here and there take the approach that KS1 doesn't matter as there's plenty of time to catch up later. They are doing children a disservice with this approach, within the system within which we operate.
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
Don't retire so easily Amber. You said that nothing would ever persuade you that a year 3 child could need "formal coaching". Well I don't know what you mean by formal, or by coaching.
I don't know anyone who wants the hardest maths, or the hardest reading books either. I think maybe unless you read the national curriculum for primary maths, look at standards across a lot of schools, and then visit our school and see what trivial nonsense a lot of children are being given to do in class and at home by some teachers (not all), you will never know quite why I'm saying what I'm saying. Maybe my school is an exception.
If a parent can see what's going on and do something about, what's the harm in that Amber? I think your children must have been luckier than us with their primary school. Everywhere else around here is full, full, full, our school just grabs every child they can and the numbers go up and up and the rubbish they teach increases by the day.
I'm so impressed with your response Mystery. Amber, honestly with 30 children in a class do you really think a teacher can impact the desired knowledge in them all. Some parents will just go with the flow but some of us wants more and better. I asked a friend what secondary school her year 6 dd would be going. She told me she doesn't know. Such parent does not care if her dd is being taught well or not. She goes with the flow.
Like we've all pointed out each child developmental needs differ and my dd2 might not even need 11+ prepping till year 5. Would I put a foundation in place? Yes. If that is what is called formal tutoring, then yes.
I'm sorry if anyone got offended with this thread but we learn daily and we would have differing opinions.
I don't know anyone who wants the hardest maths, or the hardest reading books either. I think maybe unless you read the national curriculum for primary maths, look at standards across a lot of schools, and then visit our school and see what trivial nonsense a lot of children are being given to do in class and at home by some teachers (not all), you will never know quite why I'm saying what I'm saying. Maybe my school is an exception.
If a parent can see what's going on and do something about, what's the harm in that Amber? I think your children must have been luckier than us with their primary school. Everywhere else around here is full, full, full, our school just grabs every child they can and the numbers go up and up and the rubbish they teach increases by the day.
I'm so impressed with your response Mystery. Amber, honestly with 30 children in a class do you really think a teacher can impact the desired knowledge in them all. Some parents will just go with the flow but some of us wants more and better. I asked a friend what secondary school her year 6 dd would be going. She told me she doesn't know. Such parent does not care if her dd is being taught well or not. She goes with the flow.
Like we've all pointed out each child developmental needs differ and my dd2 might not even need 11+ prepping till year 5. Would I put a foundation in place? Yes. If that is what is called formal tutoring, then yes.
I'm sorry if anyone got offended with this thread but we learn daily and we would have differing opinions.
Re: Prepping for grammar school? Is year 3 too early?
Hi, year 3 is not too early. My son is in year 2 and he is doing bond verbal resoning year3 test, bond non verbal year 4 test, maths year 3 test and english year 2 test, almost every day. Mostly 2-3 tests a day. He did all year 2 tests also he did year 3 other books like letts. He enjoys studying. He only works one hour a day after school. My doughter is in year 6 we are waiting for exam results. She is good but i wish i had started 11+ tests earlier with her.
