A question for you all
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Guest
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Guest
The educational consensus seems to be that you generally need a critical mass of bright students in the year group at a comp in order for those children to succeed. Some comps have that, some don't. That is equally true in fully comprehensive LEAs and won't change if you get rid of the remaining grammar schools.
I am guessing that one of the main reasons that the brightest students tend to do better when there are a number of them together is because the school is then able to teach them as a group at a faster pace. Grammar schools do the same on a larger scale.
I am sure that not all comprehensives have a culture of under-achievement, but some undoubtedly do. This may be the case even at some highly regarded, oversubscribed schools. This is not the same as general bad behaviour where a teacher can't control a class; I agree that that can happen in any state school, grammars included. Nor is it the same as having a small core of disaffected children whose constant low level disruption causes such trouble to the whole class. Again you can get that at grammars too. It is only in private schools that parents can be quietly asked to withdraw such children immediately.
The problem as I see it is that in SOME comps it is seen as cool to be, or pretend to be, thick or lazy. Diligence and achievement (except, perhaps, in football) is scorned and perpetrators tormented accordingly.
My year 6 child is already being taunted as "weird" and "stupid" because she reads for pleasure and does well in school. This is, perhaps coincidentally but maybe not, exclusively by children with older siblings at the local (oversubscribed) comp. Those with siblings at grammar schools just don't behave like this. I have noticed how my child bends over backwards never to retaliate in kind and to try to hide her successes, so it's not because of arrogance on her part. It is also not from their parents that the children get these attitudes. I know some of them well enough to be sure that they would be horrified to know what goes on sometimes.
The constant nastiness when some of these children get together (although one to one outside school they are fine) has caused us huge stress to the extent that I believe that it has affected my child's health. A view supported by our GP. Another 7 years of that? No thank you.
I am guessing that one of the main reasons that the brightest students tend to do better when there are a number of them together is because the school is then able to teach them as a group at a faster pace. Grammar schools do the same on a larger scale.
I am sure that not all comprehensives have a culture of under-achievement, but some undoubtedly do. This may be the case even at some highly regarded, oversubscribed schools. This is not the same as general bad behaviour where a teacher can't control a class; I agree that that can happen in any state school, grammars included. Nor is it the same as having a small core of disaffected children whose constant low level disruption causes such trouble to the whole class. Again you can get that at grammars too. It is only in private schools that parents can be quietly asked to withdraw such children immediately.
The problem as I see it is that in SOME comps it is seen as cool to be, or pretend to be, thick or lazy. Diligence and achievement (except, perhaps, in football) is scorned and perpetrators tormented accordingly.
My year 6 child is already being taunted as "weird" and "stupid" because she reads for pleasure and does well in school. This is, perhaps coincidentally but maybe not, exclusively by children with older siblings at the local (oversubscribed) comp. Those with siblings at grammar schools just don't behave like this. I have noticed how my child bends over backwards never to retaliate in kind and to try to hide her successes, so it's not because of arrogance on her part. It is also not from their parents that the children get these attitudes. I know some of them well enough to be sure that they would be horrified to know what goes on sometimes.
The constant nastiness when some of these children get together (although one to one outside school they are fine) has caused us huge stress to the extent that I believe that it has affected my child's health. A view supported by our GP. Another 7 years of that? No thank you.
Hi All,
We live in NE Worcs close to the Solihull border, although my children go to school Birmingham (1 to KE Five Ways Grammar and the other to the KE Girls Independent)
It's certainly true that the majority of Solihull Comprehensives are excellent, but it's also the case that a significant number of children do take the KE grammar and independent 11+ exams. There are in fact about 4 double decker school buses that go to the various KE Grammars from the Solihull area.
In respect of bullying; this goes on to a greater or lesser extent at all schools; comprehensive, grammar or independent.
I happen to work in Wimbledon for a couple of days a week in an office across the road from Wimbledon main line rail station. There are a large of of pupils (100+) who catch buses every morning from a bus stop out side my office to very prestigious grammar and independent schools in the Kingston-upon Thames area. Behavour has become so bad recently that the local Wimbledon police station sends about 4 police officers every day to keep order!
We live in NE Worcs close to the Solihull border, although my children go to school Birmingham (1 to KE Five Ways Grammar and the other to the KE Girls Independent)
It's certainly true that the majority of Solihull Comprehensives are excellent, but it's also the case that a significant number of children do take the KE grammar and independent 11+ exams. There are in fact about 4 double decker school buses that go to the various KE Grammars from the Solihull area.
In respect of bullying; this goes on to a greater or lesser extent at all schools; comprehensive, grammar or independent.
I happen to work in Wimbledon for a couple of days a week in an office across the road from Wimbledon main line rail station. There are a large of of pupils (100+) who catch buses every morning from a bus stop out side my office to very prestigious grammar and independent schools in the Kingston-upon Thames area. Behavour has become so bad recently that the local Wimbledon police station sends about 4 police officers every day to keep order!
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Sally-Anne
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Hi Teacher77
If you are still watching this post, perhaps you would let us know your thoughts so far? It's an odd feeling watching the posts build up without a response from you!
You have certainly stirred things up around here, and well done for having made your original post in the ideal spirit of this Forum - challenging, but not confrontational.
One or two people have had to be gently restrained, as there are passionate feelings among those of us who feel that we are "caught between the devil and the deep blue sea" where we live, but otherwise I think that your post has brought out some very interesting responses from quite a number of areas. Thank you for contributing to the debate in such a constructive way.
(The discussion continues, of course!)
Sally-Anne
If you are still watching this post, perhaps you would let us know your thoughts so far? It's an odd feeling watching the posts build up without a response from you!
You have certainly stirred things up around here, and well done for having made your original post in the ideal spirit of this Forum - challenging, but not confrontational.
One or two people have had to be gently restrained, as there are passionate feelings among those of us who feel that we are "caught between the devil and the deep blue sea" where we live, but otherwise I think that your post has brought out some very interesting responses from quite a number of areas. Thank you for contributing to the debate in such a constructive way.
(The discussion continues, of course!)
Sally-Anne
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Guest
Hello KenR
Your last post made me smile. When we lived near Wimbledon over 10 years ago I remember a brawl between pupils from two local girls' schools taking place at Wimbledon station. According to newspaper quotes from some of the little darlings (yes it was bad enough to make the papers) they were fighting along sectarian lines....
Your last post made me smile. When we lived near Wimbledon over 10 years ago I remember a brawl between pupils from two local girls' schools taking place at Wimbledon station. According to newspaper quotes from some of the little darlings (yes it was bad enough to make the papers) they were fighting along sectarian lines....
Hi, Teacher 77,
Can I ask you if you approve of City Acadamies or VA / Religious schools?
The former are allowed to select on the basis of ability in sport, science, arts, and the former on the basis of belief (or at least, the attendance of parents in the church / mosque / whatever - which is not the same thing as belief).
Is selecting on the basis of sports ability any better than on academic ability? Surely the poor, less sporty children will feel second rate citizens?
We have no grammars here in Surrey, apart from Reigate grammar - a private school that used to be a state grammar before the tories abolished grammars in Surrey in 1976. At the time, Labour were for Grammars, as they allowed the lower classes the equivalent quality of education that the toffs got in their private schools. For years beforehand, the Conservatives made sure that the grammars were under-funded compares with the secondary moderns.
Surrey Dad
Can I ask you if you approve of City Acadamies or VA / Religious schools?
The former are allowed to select on the basis of ability in sport, science, arts, and the former on the basis of belief (or at least, the attendance of parents in the church / mosque / whatever - which is not the same thing as belief).
Is selecting on the basis of sports ability any better than on academic ability? Surely the poor, less sporty children will feel second rate citizens?
We have no grammars here in Surrey, apart from Reigate grammar - a private school that used to be a state grammar before the tories abolished grammars in Surrey in 1976. At the time, Labour were for Grammars, as they allowed the lower classes the equivalent quality of education that the toffs got in their private schools. For years beforehand, the Conservatives made sure that the grammars were under-funded compares with the secondary moderns.
Surrey Dad
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Guest
They are probably still under funded. Annual spend per child seems to be lower at the grammars than at other secondaries in our area. In addition, major, very expensive rebuilding projects are being proposed for certain local secondary moderns (at the tax payers expense) whilst the grammars are left to try and sell off playing fields or school buildings to replace their even grottier buildings.
grammar v comp
Hello,
I've just read all your earlier posts and am also a teacher at an FE college. I fully support your argument - but wish to ask - Are you a parent?
Inherrently - parents want to do the best for their children. This should mean that they send their children to the school that academically suits the child's needs. I accept that this is not alweays the case!
One thing that you are missing is: are the rest of the child's siblings already in the school they are seeking to get the youngest child into. Very often - parents need all children to attend the same school for logistical or economic reasons. They might not be the correct reasons, nonetheless they are valid.
Occasionsally - parents on this forum have unfortunately got exisiting experience of the school that the LEA have allocated their child. To take our family as an example. Our eldest child went unquestioningly to the local comp - 2100 on the register. The tutor always started the morning registration with "Anybody not want to be here? - Go out now please".
Naturally when it comes to the next child - you realise that this is not the kind of education that you had hoped for. Hence - in absence of any alternative - you enter the 11+ process.
I rest my case!
You are correct - every school should provide an eduucation to meet the need of every child. Reality is unfortunately somewhat different!
Good luck with your career. More people sharing your thinking are needed to change things for the benefit of all children.
I've just read all your earlier posts and am also a teacher at an FE college. I fully support your argument - but wish to ask - Are you a parent?
Inherrently - parents want to do the best for their children. This should mean that they send their children to the school that academically suits the child's needs. I accept that this is not alweays the case!
One thing that you are missing is: are the rest of the child's siblings already in the school they are seeking to get the youngest child into. Very often - parents need all children to attend the same school for logistical or economic reasons. They might not be the correct reasons, nonetheless they are valid.
Occasionsally - parents on this forum have unfortunately got exisiting experience of the school that the LEA have allocated their child. To take our family as an example. Our eldest child went unquestioningly to the local comp - 2100 on the register. The tutor always started the morning registration with "Anybody not want to be here? - Go out now please".
Naturally when it comes to the next child - you realise that this is not the kind of education that you had hoped for. Hence - in absence of any alternative - you enter the 11+ process.
I rest my case!
You are correct - every school should provide an eduucation to meet the need of every child. Reality is unfortunately somewhat different!
Good luck with your career. More people sharing your thinking are needed to change things for the benefit of all children.
