Why aren't there more Grammar schools?

[daveg]

The programme was on Friday 5th October, they do not say where they got the statistics from, it just said that 2 million apply each year for 160,000 places. It is on channel 5 on demand it will be available only for about 20 hours.

That's complete nonsense. The birthrate ten years ago (people applying for secondary school this year) was 666 000 per year. It's now risen to about 750 000. The highest the birthrate in the UK has ever been is about 950 000 per year in the mid-1960s. Even if every child born in the UK were to apply for grammar schools (and they don't, not least because there are no state grammars in either Wales or Scotland) your number will still be out by a factor of about three.

There are only 164 grammar schools in England. Large ones take in perhaps as many as 150 but a lot are substantially smaller. Assuming an average of 100, that would give 16 400 places. For there to be 160000 places, it would require the average grammar school to be 34-form intake. There are no 34-form intake schools.

Before posting numbers that are clearly nonsensical, why not do a quick sanity check? If there were 2 million children in each school year, that would imply a UK population of 150 million. The UK population is less than 70 million. If there were 160 000 grammar school places per year, that would imply a grammar school sector of 1.1 million, and therefore the average grammar school having six thousand pupils. Do you know any grammar schools with six thousand pupils? No, I don't either.

[ahap]

Thank you, Hermanmunster. You have always been helpful.

[mystery]

I don't know any grammar schools with 6000 pupils, but I have had some grammar school children round to the house from time to time, and it sounds as though there are 6000 of them. Maybe this radio programme was reporting feelings. Perhaps by the time you have marked a few 11 plus papers you feel like there were 2 million of them ...... even if you are just an optical reading device.

[Chilled]

Perhaps they are counting the number of applications to grammar or selective schools rather than the number of individual children. My DS sat exams for 3 state schools and other children sit more than this.

[daveg]

Perhaps they are counting the number of applications to grammar or selective schools rather than the number of individual children. My DS sat exams for 3 state schools and other children sit more than this.

An average of 3.5 applications to a state grammar for every single child in England?

[mystery]

Perhaps it's a smaller number of people doing a much larger number of applications! They all live in Sevenoaks.

[custard]

I'm not particularly keen on the grammar school system. I went to a comprehensive school - the same school that practically every child in the town went to. It was streamed, so we did sit an exam but children could go up or down a stream if necessary. I think it was an ideal system. However, where I live now the comprehensive schools are not truly comprehensive because the brightest children are creamed off and sent to grammar school. I have looked at the Ofsted reports for all my local schools and the grammar schools are all outstanding for everything while the comprehensive schools are satisfactory. This is why I would like to send my son to a grammar school even though I'm not keen on the system. I'm also disappointed that the local grammar schools are single sex (unless he can get into Pates but that isn't our most local grammar school). I would be happy if the system were scrapped and all children went to comprehensive schools.

[It'sme!]

I don't think it's fair to say that a child sitting an entrance exam means there is a huge demand for Grammar Schools.

We fought hard for our Grammar School place for DD but I wish to God they didn't exist. And, yes, I know that makes me a huge hypocrite. We just had to do the best for our child in the system we are stuck in.

We live in an area where there it has been traditional for local children to sit the exam. I was an 11 plus failure - was expected to pass by friends and teachers, and can still remember the pain of my friends not believing me when I told them. I'm not going to go into how it has affected me as an adult too much, but I will say I wouldn't wish that on any 10 or 11 year old EVER. It was so hard when history repeated itself with my daughter, and I can't tell you how emotional it was going through the appeals process knowing that it failed me as a child, and DID affect the rest of my life.

Had her teacher said she would be better off being in the top sets at our local High School, then it would have been a no brainer and she'd have just gone there no question. However, he was insistant that she would do well at Grammar School, and just as my teachers were shocked when I didn't pass, he was shocked that my dd didn't pass. I appealed and despite my misgivings, we won it, and she is now settled and doing really, really well.

Our High Schools here are excellent too, but my theory is, that their results are so good because not as many of our local bright children get through to Grammar Schools because there are so many out-of catchment places given out. I'm not saying the High Schools aren't good, just not as good as it seems; it's not a true picture of the Grammar School System.

I would far rather a Comp system with sets that children can go up and down in when they need to.

One of my arguments at appeal was that my dd needed to continue to study in a peer group of at least equal ability to the one she was currently working in - and that peer group was off to Grammar School. And THAT, was really the only reason I "DEMANDED" a Grammar School place. Not because, I think they're the best education system, but because, we are stuck in that system, and I needed to get the best from it that I can for my daughter.

From talking to other parents (in this area at least), I know I'm not the only one who applied for a Grammar School place, who would rather they didn't exist.

[wonderwoman]

I don't like the grammar system either - but living in a rural area I have to try and live with it. The nearest true comprehensive is considerably more than 20 miles away and there is no public transport available.

The problem I have with the system is the big difference between what the 2 local schools offer.
The grammar offers higher level GCSEs, 12 or 13 are taken in one sitting depending on whether your DC does triple science or not. It has a 6th form with a very wide range of subjects.

The secondary modern offers a small range of GCSEs mostly at foundation level, but there is the option of higher tier in some subjects. They offer a wide range of BTECs. 8 subjects are taken over a 3 year period. There is no 6th form, some are able to transfer to the grammar and generally do exceptionally well, but most don't get high enough marks, because the grammar is not keen on BTECs. The nearest college is generally recognised as poor and the next nearest involves a substantial cost for travel. Both are about 20 miles away in opposite directions.

So what to do? No school is really ideal. I actually prefer the secondary school, I like the head and the fantastic atmosphere at the school - but DC go to the grammar. I am an unwilling participant and I'm saving to send youngest DC (currently at primary and high achiever) to nearest indi which is truely comprehensive.

[daveg]

The grammar offers higher level GCSEs, 12 or 13 are taken in one sitting depending on whether your DC does triple science or not. It has a 6th form with a very wide range of subjects.

The secondary modern offers a small range of GCSEs mostly at foundation level, but there is the option of higher tier in some subjects (etc)

Every grammar school place creates at least one, usually more, secondary modern place. As you create more grammar places, the secondary moderns become even less attractive. There will always be children "just one mark off". Parents who claim that the 11+ is a fair method of allocation (obviously, this doesn't include you!) tend to change their tune if and when their child fails.