Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
Moderators: Section Moderators, Forum Moderators
Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
Well profuse apologies if so. I have never had this concern myself, but perhaps I am just a lazy or ignorant parent.mystery wrote:I think you have misunderstood Cranleigh, Amber. Her posts are always about her concern that certain schools (both state and private) decide how "able" a child is early on, and then teach them accordingly.
Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
I don't think so. Just lucky not to have had this particular school of thought inflicted on your child.Just read the page in the times. There seems to be a great diversity of opinion amongst independent heads. Choosing the head you pay for is clearly important.
Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
I can kind of see why schools set entrance tests and also why prospective parents in a competitive market then try to give their children the best chance of passing them but what really annoys me about private schools is the interviews they hold with the child.
Mine might well have passed the tests but not being precocious "in your face" loud- mouthed types would never have got in anywhere. Questions like "What is your favourite word and why?" at the age of 10 or 11 would have met with silence whilst said child thought to itself " Why is this idiot asking me such a stupid question?"!!
Mine might well have passed the tests but not being precocious "in your face" loud- mouthed types would never have got in anywhere. Questions like "What is your favourite word and why?" at the age of 10 or 11 would have met with silence whilst said child thought to itself " Why is this idiot asking me such a stupid question?"!!
Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
TBH magwich I don't think private school interviews are looking for precocious in-your-face children. I'm no expert but both ours have been interviewed at various times with (from my point of view) excellent results in three out of four cases. Both are capable (on good days - no guarantees 
- that's probably why it's only three out of four...) of being charming, intelligent and articulate, but they're pretty much the antithesis of precocious and in-your-face.
Anyway, I don't know about anyone else but I'm keenly awaiting a definition of "innate ability".
- that's probably why it's only three out of four...) of being charming, intelligent and articulate, but they're pretty much the antithesis of precocious and in-your-face.Anyway, I don't know about anyone else but I'm keenly awaiting a definition of "innate ability".
Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
Put x headteachers of x top schools in the room and you will get x opinions of what "innate intellect" is.
Parents should just carry on doing what they think is best for their child and forget these vague and critical announcements from headteachers etc. It's not even clear why some of these heads ask the tutoring question, or what use they put the answer to. The child could have gone to a terrible tutor. It's a pointless argument from these heads. Maybe they feel ashamed that children from both independent preps and independent senior schools are still going to tutors because they are not providing the desired educational package.
If I was asked this question I would ask what information they were really trying to seek and why they felt a yes or no answer to this question would help them find out the information they are seeking.
Perhaps they will also start asking "does your child take fish oil?" yes / no.
There's certainly a private school near here which I would feel does not provide the kind of education I would hope for in the earlier years of kindergarten and prep.
Parents should just carry on doing what they think is best for their child and forget these vague and critical announcements from headteachers etc. It's not even clear why some of these heads ask the tutoring question, or what use they put the answer to. The child could have gone to a terrible tutor. It's a pointless argument from these heads. Maybe they feel ashamed that children from both independent preps and independent senior schools are still going to tutors because they are not providing the desired educational package.
If I was asked this question I would ask what information they were really trying to seek and why they felt a yes or no answer to this question would help them find out the information they are seeking.
Perhaps they will also start asking "does your child take fish oil?" yes / no.
There's certainly a private school near here which I would feel does not provide the kind of education I would hope for in the earlier years of kindergarten and prep.
Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
I think a CAT test. The entrance test at Eton apparently has a test that judges 'innate ability' and it's said preparation makes little odds. I did hear of a Prep that has a computerised system which aims to familiarise its boys for this sort of test.
Thanks Mystery for comments up thread. Ofsted divide the cohort up into high, middle & low achievers and have different ideas about what constitutes good progress for different groups. I imagine for most this works well.
Most educators believe certain children can only do so much, it's cognitive bias and often subconscious. It's human nature and most of us are the same as we try to order the world around us. Again for the most part it won't hold most children back.
A well known educator said once in a talk 'of course children can only go so far as the genes of their ancestors allow'. It was food for thought as I realised this was what many believed. How might that belief play out in the classroom? It's a subject that interests me.
Someone mentioned different Prep heads had different views and this was in the Times? Didn't see that. I think it's interesting that there seems to be a growing feeling that Preps shouldn't Prep in the traditional sense. Much better to concentrate on encouraging a more rounded child in a more creative setting etc. Places at the more academic schools should be taken by the naturally academic. As it said in the article too much prep can 'mask true abilities'.
Thanks Mystery for comments up thread. Ofsted divide the cohort up into high, middle & low achievers and have different ideas about what constitutes good progress for different groups. I imagine for most this works well.
Most educators believe certain children can only do so much, it's cognitive bias and often subconscious. It's human nature and most of us are the same as we try to order the world around us. Again for the most part it won't hold most children back.
A well known educator said once in a talk 'of course children can only go so far as the genes of their ancestors allow'. It was food for thought as I realised this was what many believed. How might that belief play out in the classroom? It's a subject that interests me.
Someone mentioned different Prep heads had different views and this was in the Times? Didn't see that. I think it's interesting that there seems to be a growing feeling that Preps shouldn't Prep in the traditional sense. Much better to concentrate on encouraging a more rounded child in a more creative setting etc. Places at the more academic schools should be taken by the naturally academic. As it said in the article too much prep can 'mask true abilities'.
Last edited by Cranleigh on Wed May 01, 2013 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0016006" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You might like that one Cranleigh. Twin study report on the influence of heritability (about 50%), shared environmental factors (about 25%) and non-shared (eg school) factors (around 12%) on 'value added' in children's outcomes. And yes I know the numbers don't add up.
You might like that one Cranleigh. Twin study report on the influence of heritability (about 50%), shared environmental factors (about 25%) and non-shared (eg school) factors (around 12%) on 'value added' in children's outcomes. And yes I know the numbers don't add up.
Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
Thank you, Amber 
- looking now.
- looking now.Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
Disagreement amongst heads in the Times - yesterday - "Internet creates "instant-expert pushy parents" ... Christian Heinrich (head of a prep school and incoming chair of boarding school association said ".... many senior schools are too narrowly focused on the results of tests on cognitive processing".
Also, in other article,"Head attaches the hideous tutoring of pre-schoolers", Clarissa Farr, high mistress at St Paul's girls said ".... I am less concerned about the tutoring for admissions to private schools than that which goes on once they are there. I believe that there is a significant industry which trades on insecurity and exam anxiety, sometimes undermining rather than building confidence. There should be charter which requires all tutors to register with the school any child they tutor attends, so that all parties can work together."
Well it would be very good if tutors and schools worked together. Having tried to work with a school as a parent I struggle. Good luck to tutors trying to do this. Most teachers hate the notion of providing even the minimum of information to a parent to enable a private tutor to do a quick and efficient job. Unless teachers at St Paul's are different, Clarissa needs to do a bit more research on this one.
Also Clarissa says ".... we now ask parents when they apply to declare what tutoring they have provided for their children". Why does she ask this if she's not concerned about it? Won't parents be tempted to hide it as a result of this question? Why then would they want their tutor to register with the school once the child is in the school?
This I do not find a good advert for St Paul's. It does not attract me to this school or this head one little bit. I would rather she told us more about the benefits of her school than her disapproval of what some of her parents do with their cash. £50 plus spent on an hour with a London tutor for the child is probably a better spend than a line of cocaine.
Also, in other article,"Head attaches the hideous tutoring of pre-schoolers", Clarissa Farr, high mistress at St Paul's girls said ".... I am less concerned about the tutoring for admissions to private schools than that which goes on once they are there. I believe that there is a significant industry which trades on insecurity and exam anxiety, sometimes undermining rather than building confidence. There should be charter which requires all tutors to register with the school any child they tutor attends, so that all parties can work together."
Well it would be very good if tutors and schools worked together. Having tried to work with a school as a parent I struggle. Good luck to tutors trying to do this. Most teachers hate the notion of providing even the minimum of information to a parent to enable a private tutor to do a quick and efficient job. Unless teachers at St Paul's are different, Clarissa needs to do a bit more research on this one.
Also Clarissa says ".... we now ask parents when they apply to declare what tutoring they have provided for their children". Why does she ask this if she's not concerned about it? Won't parents be tempted to hide it as a result of this question? Why then would they want their tutor to register with the school once the child is in the school?
This I do not find a good advert for St Paul's. It does not attract me to this school or this head one little bit. I would rather she told us more about the benefits of her school than her disapproval of what some of her parents do with their cash. £50 plus spent on an hour with a London tutor for the child is probably a better spend than a line of cocaine.
Re: Growing movement for tests which judge innate intellect
I do not think CATs show innate ability at all - DD2 got full marks in all 3 sections with no previous practice whatsoever. She said the CATs were pretty easy and very similar to the NFER 11 plus so not exactly "tutor proof"!