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 Post subject: BBC Report
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:32 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:31 am
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24850139


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Report
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:28 pm
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Had a quick read of this article. It seems to contradict itself. One minute it says that coaching should be stopped, the next that less advantaged pupils should have a minimum of 10 hours free test preparation. Isn't that coaching?!


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Report
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:15 am 
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The part I agree with is that there should be free GS preparation classes for poor children to level the playing field. Parents will always try to help their children whichever part of society they come from.

The only way you can make it fair is to prepare and test everyone equally or improve the existing comprehensive


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Report
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:31 pm
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Doesn't really say anything that most (if not all) posters on here already know. Grammar School entry has always been seen as favouring richer families.

We resisted the urge to get tutoring for our daughter, it was hard because she'll only be 10 once and won't have that preparation time again. We want to give her every opportunity in life but we didn't want her to be in a school she wasn't suitable for, however much we wanted it for her. I hope we get to the point when no-one has to make that choice.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Report
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:59 am
Posts: 1656
10 hours? How can that help? We didn't want to tutor our son, but when seeing that most people were doing it, we had to. He is going to our local school where no help whatsoever is given to prepare for the 11+

Both my husband and I have made our son our priority and given him our time every day; we've had to brush up on our skills as well as getting a tutor to guide us in the process. He's been up against children who go to prep schools where they work every day and have to continue the preparation at home.

I cannot see how 10 hours can help anyone compete against prep school children. Or are they talking weekly?!

As the birth rate has been increasing steadily since 2001, the problem is just going to get worse!


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Report
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:49 am 
why can't we use contextual information i.e schools that produce few if any children who get into Grammar Schools be given a lower threshold for entry or those on FSM-back this up by a school report in other words try to capture poor children more on the basis of potential then prior attainment?
certain groups are given special priority already like "looked after children"
this kind of positive discrimination is used now by our top universities now e.g Bristol uni offer a whole grade lower if candiatate comes from the lowest 1/3 of secondary schools-be they state or private so no discrimation of indies there.
there will be no doubt some legal obstacles to overcome but it could be done if only we could overcome the envitable resistance from the middle classes with their sharp elbows protesting/screeming to their local PM , after all it was this very class along with Maggie that first plunged the knife in for state grammars.
this very powerful group of people will do anything to maintain the stanglehold they have over grammar schools
see Amber I too am a lefty/liberal really :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Report
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:23 pm 
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JSN wrote:
see Amber I too am a lefty/liberal really :wink:
Nice try JSN. :)
But any leftie liberal worth their salt would argue that abandoning selective education, rather than looking for ways to change access to it, is the way to move towards a more equal society. As you rightly state, the sharp-elbowed middle classes will always ensure their children dominate the 'best' schools, and as there is no correlation between intelligence and social class, something else is at play.

Tinkering with selective tests rather than asking serious questions of ourselves about why we feel it is acceptable to offer different provision to 'bright' children is never going to tackle the fundamental social justice issues which trouble leftie liberals. Or even non-leftie non-liberals like me. :wink:

Just written a long post on this on a different section so won't repeat it. (Sighs of relief all round no doubt!).


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Report
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:23 pm 
In a free society like ours you could never abolish all selective education, if you could get rid of the remaining 164 grammars that would simply result in a larger private sector because parents will simply vote with their feet! resulting in a more unequal society not less.
Lets be clear what we mean by selection, what are we selecting for? the more I think about it the more I have become convinced parents are either consciously or subconsciously selecting for like minded parents because parents who value education will tend to have children who also value education IMO-resulting in school with a hard working -high dicipline ethos.
instead of pouring more good money after bad into education that has given little return to the taxpayer under Labour should we invest in parents , teach parents from low achieving children to value education more? would limited resources be better spent on parenting classes? so they understand that aspiring to go to university is better than aspiring to get on to X-factor!


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Report
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:59 am
Posts: 1656
It is a very complex matter. I can think of a few issues:
There are lots of hardworking parents with non hardworking children! Sometimes it's not that easy to teach children to work hard. Especially, able children who sail through school. The other point is that some parents could afford to vote with their feet and go private, but not all, especially if they have several children. Also, some parents who prefer the private sector do so for the relationships their children will have. Some working class parents do not want their children mixing with "posh" children, but would want a good education for their children.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Report
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:59 am
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JSN wrote:
Lets be clear what we mean by selection, what are we selecting for? the more I think about it the more I have become convinced parents are either consciously or subconsciously selecting for like minded parents because parents who value education will tend to have children who also value education IMO-resulting in school with a hard working -high dicipline ethos.
Selection by any means is just that, JSN - it is selection, on the whole, by class. It is the same in Germany which has a fully selective system - the middle classes go to grammar schools. In countries where there is no selection, there don't tend to be many private schools either - our system is a hangover from the very rigid class system we have had over time and which we seem keen to perpetuate.

Your comment about parenting classes is interesting and touches on something which all radicals like myself know :wink: - we will never change the fundamentals of the education system until we change society. No chance. :(


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