Is our aspiration damaging our children? (Times article)

[JSN]

to ms miserable
I do agree with regarding state maintained schools but top Indies generllay have quite I.Q based tests already although the Common Entrence Exam is pap! the key difference with Indies is they have interviews/assessment tests and can spot overtly over tutored kids - they speak and act like little adults-you can spot them mile off!
the independents have a more social mix then most Grammars
here some anecdotal nonsense
in my son,s school at least 40% recieve some kind of financial help , now we also ahve a high performing Grammar school in our area , i.e Altrincham Grammar School for girls top 5 state school as per The Times in top 100 ft schools even more remarkable it is not even super-selective and regulary wipes the the floor with such schools and why? the school is located in one of the most affluent areas outside the s.e , selection based on distance provided one reaches the min pass mark, so they pick very weathly cohort with the advantage of prep schools intensive tutoring at the expence of the poor(that cannot be right), I'm tired of Indies bashing we are more diverse then AGGS!- sorry about the rambling - one my 3rd glass now

[mystery]

Ok, your point I am sure is fair as I have no widespread knowledge of independent school entrance tests.

What are these heavily I q based tests that top indies use - thr only in depth I have looked at past Sevenoaks entrance test papers on their website. The maths, English comprehension and associated writing task I thought looked like the kind of thing I was taught to do extremely thoroughly when I went to an independent prep, and not difficult compare with the hardest ones we did. They do have some computer based reasoning test also.

[Cranleigh]

Do Sevenoaks have a pre-test?

Re: over-tutoring - I know that schools like St Paul's etc are worried about those who can ace entrance exams but in reality have been over-tutored are slow when they get there and apparently not terribly bright. Given these exams need you to apply knowledge I don't see how you'll get through if you're not capable? I've never understood that. Same with pre-tests if you can ace them you must be at least 'good enough'? As for the 'mini-adults' and that being a sign of being over-tutored, plenty of children are like this. Those who have spent time with adults for example? I remember watching the Harrow documentary (not the one out now) and there was a young boy hoping for a place (not from a privileged background) who got out all his reference books with obviously glee (not usually seen in 12 year old boys). Where had this interest sprung from?

I think there is a feeling that mental agility is innate - certainly in our area and school. CATS tests will inform the head's advice of whether or not we should shoot for the Grammar or a selective Independent for those of us looking further afield. The simple advice from her and from any educational psychologist I've ever met (and I have met with a few in a similar but different line of work in the past) will generally be that whilst they are not and should not be used as a blunt instrument they are a strong indicator of suitability for selective schools. Those with 130 and above should be the ones who are aiming for the very top. If you have a score of 115-120 you are scraping in but likely ok and anyone with a score lower would be better suited elsewhere and is probably just applying due to parental ambition.

Now that some universities have said they are moving to SAT testing I see this as a reflection of the above.

If you sat and did VR and NVR for any length of time, beyond about 6 hours, the universal feeling near me is that there's a huge chance you are setting your children up for a selective environment they are perhaps not suited for if they do get in.

I am not sure what I think. I like the idea of personal industry smashing expectations and shy away from the idea of a ceiling on how far we can go but can see the sense of some of the above at the same time. CATS scores determine some sort of ad hoc G&T provision in our primary - out of interest how is that generally decided? I think it is now going out in our school due to Govt guidelines? This has to be a fairer assessment of suitability rather than than current attainment. MIDYS (?) testing also seems to be a fairy accurate predictor of performance at GCSE?

(Mystery up thread that's what I meant - to Windy that if the school had assessed using a CAT test then ambitions may have been higher from the start).

[mystery]

Sevenoaks does not have a pre-test unless their website blurb keeps this very quiet.

At top indies that do, is the pre-test some kind of IQ test and the second test something which involves taught material as well as flair, ability etc? A bright, badly educated child could, in that case, maybe pass the pre-test but fail the second hurdle.

I presume indies do not tell you the minimum "pass score" in each element of the entrance tests so, in reality, they can do whatever they wish with the information they get from the tests etc?

[Cranleigh]

Hi Mystery - you almost certainly get in if you pass the pre-test at the selective Independents. They assume all that if you do you also have the ability to pass exams at 11 and 13 & it's rare for anything to go wrong. You are right too in that they are not obliged to be transparent about entry procedure.

[mystery]

I remember a few people on here though with children with phenomenal I Q s still worrying about the exams beyond the pre test for Eton etc.

I am not sure about this business about preparation for VR and NVR. I think no matter how much one practices the types, so long as the real questions are hard enough it is going to be test of ability - nvr being the purest test because it is culture free. The g l assessment book " 11 plus explained" explains quite a bit about the tests and the effects of preparation. I think there is a lot of bluff in the recent journalistic discussions about selection tests.

I wonder just how many highly tutored but thick children have been admitted unwittingly to top schools over the years. I suspect very few - they will mostly know when they have done it, and will have done it for a reason.

Independent schools have to be on guard for their charitable status and arguing that their admissions procedures give some chances to the deserving bright but poor and poorly educated will be part of this surely - it is hard to know though where fact stops and persuasive but unevidenced argument starts.

[JSN]

Now that some universities have said they are moving to SAT testing I see this as a reflection of the above.

we have had these in the most competitive/oversubscribed degree for yrs i.e Medicine they are called UKCAT/BMAT all medical school use it I think except Birmingham (though I could be wrong)
they were introduced because GCSE and A levels are no longer differentiating enough at the top end, it's a problem with GSCE/A level standards that caused these hoards of applicants demanding their rightful place armed with AAA/A*A*A* predictions
I now await g55 to come along and give me a mualing !owch
Jeez I have a terrible unexplained headache

[silverysea]

Why should I have to send my child to a fee-paying school?

All children should be provided for by the state education system, and most have no alternative.

Whether the family or child chooses to supplement their learning (whether sport, music, maths or thumping other kids) at home, is not really the remit of school-they should assess and then teach appropriately the child in front of them.

They must take on board that labelling is self-fulfilling and expect progress from all, right?...

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps we just expect too much from this economical one-size factory model. The classes are too big.

[Amber]

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps we just expect too much from this economical one-size factory model. The classes are too big.

Whatever else you say about the English education system, it is absolutely not a one-size factory model. It is actually the most diverse 'system' in the world, and I put 'system' in inverted commas because some of us would now dispute that it is a system at all.

The link between class size and pupil performance, while it has become one of those common-sense 'truths' is actually far from established and subject to all kinds of confounding nuances.

[JSN]

Why should I have to send my child to a fee-paying school?

well you should not have too! nor should I . I have lots of things I could do with 15k a yr instead paying school fees, honest ,I would like to buy a new car that does not break down every wk! for example.
but we are were we are, just because I can afford it (just) does not mean I have no regard to those less fortunate them myself.
I have worked with the most disadvantaged communities all my working life and I have no problem that top universities should demand higher grades from my son than say Moss Side Comp.
To me education is not just a means to an end, I chose private because I wanted my son to do iGCSE's not the dumbed down GCSE's and pre-U A Levels so he is armed for the furture in everyway, for example when I was young I thought little of art or poetry, to me "science made complex things simple and art made simple thigs complicated" it was only when I got to forties or so that I graduated to radio 3 and 4 but my education gave me the tools to appreciate these side of things and now my life has been enriched with this new knowlegde.
and I got this education from a comp school!