Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

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kenyancowgirl
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by kenyancowgirl »

I am a fervent believer that applicants from private schools have an unfair advantage in the 11+ than state school candidates (as state schools are not allowed to help children prepare for the 11+). As GSs were set up to help bright but financially disadvantaged children get a good quality education, I don't think they should be open to private school applicants. As this is never going to happen, my next hope is that state school applicants have a standardisation akin to the age normalisation vs private school applicants. The real solution would to be have one form of education that is top quality for everyone. But that isn't going to happen either...
berks_mum
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by berks_mum »

Yes, private schools do prepare heavily for Grammars. I heard some schools have VR and NVR as regular subjects. Also, for literacy and numeracy they are usually 2 years ahead than state schools.
I was saying about the same standardisation but at Uni level. So for example if a Uni has 90 places: 30 should be reserved for students coming from comp schools, 30 from grammar and 30 from private. So, they compete with their respective schools rather than across the different types of schools. I think that should give a fair chance to everyone.
Amber
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by Amber »

berks_mum wrote:Do you think a difference in University entry criteria for grammar vs non grammar would reduce the grammar attraction ? Some kind of standardisation in levels/scores across the two streams to reduce the advantage of one over the other ?
It's an interesting idea and I can see the justice angle is attractive; but I think that would be so politically dangerous that no party would ever bring it in. There would be rioting on the streets of High Wycombe.

A much simpler solution would be to do away with selective schooling altogether. Oh yes, and private schooling. The problem is there is such an ingrained ethos of differentiation that it has become a common-sense 'truth' in this country that people of different abilities must be educated separately from each other - whether on the red and blue tables in Reception or in the top and bottom sets at secondary school. There is almost no ongoing research which challenges this assumption and so it is perpetuated. Devising methods of attempting to rationalise and 'make fair' this segregation will always be tinkering around the edges of the problem and missing the key point; namely that if you didn't segregate by ability, you wouldn't have to try and find a fair way to segregate by ability!
tiffinboys
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by tiffinboys »

berks_mum wrote:Yes, private schools do prepare heavily for Grammars. I heard some schools have VR and NVR as regular subjects. Also, for literacy and numeracy they are usually 2 years ahead than state schools.
I was saying about the same standardisation but at Uni level. So for example if a Uni has 90 places: 30 should be reserved for students coming from comp schools, 30 from grammar and 30 from private. So, they compete with their respective schools rather than across the different types of schools. I think that should give a fair chance to everyone.
Why not open competition for uni places, just as there would be for jobs there-after?

Unless, of course, you thinks jobs should also go 1/3 each to grammars, non-grammars and private schools kids.
tiffinboys
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by tiffinboys »

It's an interesting idea and I can see the justice angle is attractive; but I think that would be so politically dangerous that no party would ever bring it in. There would be rioting on the streets of High Wycombe.
It is more politically dangerous to bring back selective schools. Even Iron Lady Mrs. Thatcher could not dare think about it.

A much simpler solution would be to do away with selective schooling altogether. Oh yes, and private schooling.


Socialist Republic of Formerly Great Britain - every one has same ability level. Also every one should drive the same car. Skoda would be fine and Rolls Royce factory should be handed over to China. :wink:
There is almost no ongoing research which challenges this assumption and so it is perpetuated.
Yeah, and what if 'other point' is proven?
Sally-Anne
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by Sally-Anne »

Without wishing to stifle debate, this thread is way off topic now. Please could we return to the original topic of CEM?
Proud_Dad
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by Proud_Dad »

berks_mum wrote:Yes, private schools do prepare heavily for Grammars. I heard some schools have VR and NVR as regular subjects. Also, for literacy and numeracy they are usually 2 years ahead than state schools.
I was saying about the same standardisation but at Uni level. So for example if a Uni has 90 places: 30 should be reserved for students coming from comp schools, 30 from grammar and 30 from private. So, they compete with their respective schools rather than across the different types of schools. I think that should give a fair chance to everyone.
If you wanted to go down that route you would need to make it proportionate rather than a third each. Far more children go to comps than either grammar or private so that would need to be reflected in the numbers. I can't imagine a solution like that would ever be adopted though.

Better IMO would be to just invest the same amount of money in comprehensives as is currently available through fees for good private schools. The only difference between comprehenisve kids and private ones is the wealth of their parents isn't it so if you invested enough money in a comprehensive why couldn't it be as good as a private school?
guest201
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by guest201 »

Surely the solution can't be as simple as throwing more money at it!!
southbucks3
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by southbucks3 »

Back to cem testing.

I have an idea...why not tell parents that tests have been cancelled one year and all admissions will be through teacher recommendations. Then after the teachers have spent 8 months being shmoozed, the admissions team could send a big bundle of tests into each school all to arrive on that same morning and every child in the area sits it, regardless of perceived ability or parental request. They are then bundled back up two hours later and marked independently.

Obviously they could only pull this stunt once, but it would give an extremely clear picture on the effect coaching normally has, and would provide a bench mark for the following "normal" year

As I have said previously, 32 years ago, I did not even know what the test we were all doing in the dining room was for, and the independent invigilators was a lovely man in a suit who got us all to draw a picture while we waited for the test paper to be given out. I suspect the parents knew, but never mentioned it to me until I told them I had sat a test.
Far more equal and relaxed...also the the prep school girls all went to private secondary school too, not our lowly grammar...we played hockey against them in later years and lost badly!

Edited because I have got into the really annoying habit of putting a comma before an "and" why?
Last edited by southbucks3 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tiffinboys
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Re: Durham CEM 11+ - So far so good?

Post by tiffinboys »

Great idea. Remember in old times, before T Crosby and S Williams took the helms, all children used to take the 11+ test and in their school too.
.
Also remind me that our teachers are against all form of testing before GCSEs. :wink: NUTs.
Last edited by tiffinboys on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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