results and age
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Hi Anne,
It will get sorted out if all of us disgruntled parents let the Council know our true feelings! Please, please, please do let them know that you are not happy- encourage any other concerned parents to do the same. I often feel that the good of the child is bottom of the pile beneath finance and bureaucracy...that's just not good enough and we do not have to put up with it.
It is good to know that I'm not just a lone voice!
Best wishes,
Hippo
It will get sorted out if all of us disgruntled parents let the Council know our true feelings! Please, please, please do let them know that you are not happy- encourage any other concerned parents to do the same. I often feel that the good of the child is bottom of the pile beneath finance and bureaucracy...that's just not good enough and we do not have to put up with it.
It is good to know that I'm not just a lone voice!
Best wishes,
Hippo
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DW
I guess we all look at it from the perspective of our own children and when their birthday falls. I can see that in a standardised 11+ the older children may be at a disadvantage but others with older children should also see that in a non standardised 11+ the younger children are at a disadvantage. There really ought to be a fairer way of marking it.
I'm not going to get het up about it anyway. My daughter has done her best and I am hugely proud of her whatever her results may be.
I'm not going to get het up about it anyway. My daughter has done her best and I am hugely proud of her whatever her results may be.
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Guest
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Guest
Hi I had my son tutored 2 years ago for the BUcks 11+ with another child. When i asked the tutor about raw scores and standardisation i was told roughly that if my son and his friend both achieved 70/80 my son would probably fail and the other boy pass - WHY? because my son is October born and his friend was July!!!! 
Both started school at the same time though!!
Sue
Both started school at the same time though!!Sue
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jazzteddy
This is a very difficult situation to judge. Those of us with older children will get hot under the collar and ask why our children should be expected to get many more correct answers than their younger class mates. Those with younger children will argue that standardisation for age should be used, as this will mean their younger children can get through with less correct answers.
Children in a set year group, cover the same subjects and spend the same time each year at school, so how can any one have an advantage. Tutored children have an advantage, either home or professionally tutored, as they know what to expect in terms of questions and format, should they then have to get more correct answers because of this. Would it then mean that untutored children would need less correct answers to get a place. Then some may argue that privately educated children are better prepared for selective tests, compared with state educated children, so the state educated would get through with less correct answers.
We all know that we want our children to stand a fair chance, but how do we quantify exactly what is fair. Even if all the above points were taken into account there would still be the question of how well the child does on the day. A nervous child may underperform, or adrenalin may boost performance. There are so many variables that it is truly difficult for any of us to agree on a so called fair system.
My son attends CRGS, an Essex school, I feel he got his place because he performed well when compared to the other boys on the day. He is amongst the older boys and tells me that most in his class are younger. He says some were tutored, some not, some went to private schools, some to state schools. I would like to believe that in the main the boys who got places were the ones with true ability, but I guess I could be saying that because here I am sat firmly on the positive side of things, as my son got his grammar place. I wonder how I would feel if this were not the case. I would like to think that I would feel the way things are done is fair, but...... All I can say is that if you want your child to have a fair crack at a grammar place, then aim high, do some practise and hope that on the day all goes as well as it can. If there was a magic formula to win a place, we would all be trying it wouldn't we.
Children in a set year group, cover the same subjects and spend the same time each year at school, so how can any one have an advantage. Tutored children have an advantage, either home or professionally tutored, as they know what to expect in terms of questions and format, should they then have to get more correct answers because of this. Would it then mean that untutored children would need less correct answers to get a place. Then some may argue that privately educated children are better prepared for selective tests, compared with state educated children, so the state educated would get through with less correct answers.
We all know that we want our children to stand a fair chance, but how do we quantify exactly what is fair. Even if all the above points were taken into account there would still be the question of how well the child does on the day. A nervous child may underperform, or adrenalin may boost performance. There are so many variables that it is truly difficult for any of us to agree on a so called fair system.
My son attends CRGS, an Essex school, I feel he got his place because he performed well when compared to the other boys on the day. He is amongst the older boys and tells me that most in his class are younger. He says some were tutored, some not, some went to private schools, some to state schools. I would like to believe that in the main the boys who got places were the ones with true ability, but I guess I could be saying that because here I am sat firmly on the positive side of things, as my son got his grammar place. I wonder how I would feel if this were not the case. I would like to think that I would feel the way things are done is fair, but...... All I can say is that if you want your child to have a fair crack at a grammar place, then aim high, do some practise and hope that on the day all goes as well as it can. If there was a magic formula to win a place, we would all be trying it wouldn't we.
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OptoMK
I am a bit puzzled by the controversy over standardisation. It seems clear from the results of actual tests given in the linked papers explaining standardisation, that older children do score higher marks.
I accept this will depend on the age range involved, and could be affected by the system of school starting age used in a particular region, but surely it would be obvious from the spread in a particular batch of 11+ results if older children ceased to score more highly.
I have an "older" child myself, but I am comfortable with the system, having read the linked papers. Perhaps if the overall test data statistics for each year were freely available, we could all feel happier.
I accept this will depend on the age range involved, and could be affected by the system of school starting age used in a particular region, but surely it would be obvious from the spread in a particular batch of 11+ results if older children ceased to score more highly.
I have an "older" child myself, but I am comfortable with the system, having read the linked papers. Perhaps if the overall test data statistics for each year were freely available, we could all feel happier.
This is not true in our part of Bucks - my July born son started school part time in the January after his 4th birthday and did not go full time until after Easter. The September-December borns were full time from the September so by the end of the reception year they had done 3 full terms whereas the summer born children had done a term of half days and 1 full term.Guest55 wrote:Yes but pupils now have all attended school for the SAME amount of time. They start in September of the year on which they become five not in the term AFTER they are five.
Things have changed -
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Hilda
11+ aside, younger children often feel less able than their peers because of their immaturity. Look at the children selected for the sports teams, for the school council, to be various monitors, to show guests around etc etc. They are often the older ones in the year. Especially at the KS1 end of the school the children tend to see the older ones in the class as being more capable and do not realise that this is due to their age.
On the sports note, I read an article in the paper a few months ago where a premiership footballer (with a May birthday I think) did an analysis of the birthdays of children selected for the "youth training teams" which many of the league sides run. The results showed that well over half (about 70% I think) had birthdays in the first half of the school year.
I think there are issues of confidence, perceived position in the class etc, etc which older children in the school year benefit from.
Interestingly my own summer born boys have particularly benefited from cubs and scouts where you move on according to actual age and not school term. This has given them the chance to be the leaders, and to be the eldest. I know it is not practical, but I would like to see a system where children move up to the next class when they reach their birthday rather than each September............... For those with summer born children another option is to move to Scotland, where I believe the school year divide is February.
On the sports note, I read an article in the paper a few months ago where a premiership footballer (with a May birthday I think) did an analysis of the birthdays of children selected for the "youth training teams" which many of the league sides run. The results showed that well over half (about 70% I think) had birthdays in the first half of the school year.
I think there are issues of confidence, perceived position in the class etc, etc which older children in the school year benefit from.
Interestingly my own summer born boys have particularly benefited from cubs and scouts where you move on according to actual age and not school term. This has given them the chance to be the leaders, and to be the eldest. I know it is not practical, but I would like to see a system where children move up to the next class when they reach their birthday rather than each September............... For those with summer born children another option is to move to Scotland, where I believe the school year divide is February.
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jazzteddy
How utopian. Its not just about having excellent schools its also about how we best educate our most academically able students, surely they should be placed where they will be most challenged.hippo wrote:The only fair way would be to do away with selection and have excellent schools available to all children!
This should also be the case for those who excel at sports, music, art etc, or do we live in a society where it is deemed wrong for children to show a higher ability than average? If so then our children will have little to aspire to.
