11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger children)

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salsa
Posts: 2686
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:59 am

Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by salsa »

mattsurf wrote:If you are helping a parent prepare for an appeal, pointing out the inconsistencies and unfairness of the system is likely to do far more damage to the appeal than good.

The appeal should focus on evidence of academic ability, you might point out that the 11+ result was not a reflection of the child's ability because English was their second language and it was impossible for the child to work at the required pace (at age 10 children will never have completed an exam under this level of time pressure). However, you also need to have evidence of the child's academic ability;

The appeal panel should look at the following aspects: was the appeal conducted in line with the School Admission Code - it doesn't matter if you think that the code is wrong, that is not the job of the panel to assess. If you have evidence that the test was not conducted in line with the admission code, then you need to raise that at the appeal, but you also need to bring evidence of academic ability

The next aspect that the panel will consider is whether there is other evidence that the child has suitable academic ability for the school; the parents need to collect as much quantitative evidence as possible

Finally the panel will need to consider whether the prejudice to the child of not allowing them to attend GS outweights the prejudice to the school of accepting more children than their PAN.

I agree with you that there are faults with the current 11+ and appeals system, however, an appeal is not the place to bring them up.

Finally, even if there are faults with the process, many people on this forum, myself included, would not be in favour of trying to discredit the whole system; 90%+ of the people here are strongly supportive of Grammar School education in principle, however, there are far too many people who want to put an end to Grammar Schools. I am concerned that we do not provide evidence that can be used to support the case against Grammar Schools. Individuals like yourself (and I am sure that you are well intentioned) are unlikely to make the system fairer by attacking the weaknesses.
Well put. I totally agree!
Moreover, most of us are in this forum to give and receive practical advice. The questions are normally quite specific and if we see we can help, we comment.
This post looked more like an invitation to a debate and some of us are well too busy to give the hours that the whole 11+, bilingualism and ability issues require.

As someone who speaks several languages, learnt the hard way, I have an interest in the subject. I have researched the issue extensively and could talk for hours. Being bilingual, in my view, is positive as it aids cognition. The panel could turn round with a bunch of research showing that it wasn't the bilingualism that let the child down, but other factors. They could equally turn round and say that the child does not have the required level of English to cope at a grammar school and therefore it would not be a suitable place. If you are talking about a monolingual child, recently arrived in Britain, then that's a different matter. But of course the panel could point out at a number of children who were in the same position but managed to pass the exam.
My son's grammar school is full of bilingual children and it also has those who came not long ago.
Be careful with your appeal argument as you may do more harm than good. Good luck and hope to see you on the appeals section for more targeted advice.
andyrob
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:19 pm

Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by andyrob »

Mattsurf - I also agree with a lot of what you've written.

I didn't start this thread to support an appeal, or get advice. This forum, and the 'General' section in particular, is surely not just for simple Q&As and a good place for a debate/discussion/argument by those who do have the time or inclination to contribute.

I repeat - I was, and continue to be, wondering only if and how the 'accessibility' of the test, and subsequent standardisation of marks, takes account of bilingualism. I'm certainly not 'attacking' the weaknesses of the system I have been immersed in as a child, parent and teacher for more than 50 years.

In the UK today, 25% of school children do not have English as their first language. In South Lincolnshire, as in many areas across the country, we've had a recent, very significant, influx of foreign workers and their families. We have a large proportion of children taking the 11+ who have a very different background from those prior to 2000-ish.

Far from trying to discredit the system, I'm asking you to consider whether the test itself, nothing else, treats fairly the children of our changing population and accurately allocates GS places to the brightest 25% - some of whom at the age of 10 are not always very good, maybe just a little bit slower, when doing the necessary reading and writing for the test.

We should be aware that, subtly, it is quite easy for the test to achieve something very different. And if it does, those who shape the format and inner workings of the 11+ should be aware of the likely pressures for change from those with backgrounds completely different from my own.

Just as Conservative policies changed significantly after the rise of UKIP, don't you think we would want to ensure that the test does not lay itself open to criticism, even legal challenge, as a consequence of the unprecedented demographic changes we are now seeing and an 11+ test that appears not to recognise this fact?

Lastly, I would add that when children with these or other disadvantages do pass the test, they almost invariably are committed to, and value, their Grammar School education more than many, if not most, others. And so they will often outperform children who've passed the test on the back of all the methods with which readers of this forum will be very familiar.
Proud_Dad
Posts: 500
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:55 am

Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by Proud_Dad »

mattsurf wrote:Finally, even if there are faults with the process, many people on this forum, myself included, would not be in favour of trying to discredit the whole system; 90%+ of the people here are strongly supportive of Grammar School education in principle
Where do you get that figure of 90%+ from? :? The majority of people who use this site do so because they want help and advice to try and ensure that their children do well in the 11plus test and end up going to a Grammar school because they feel this will provide a better education for their child than the alternative. This is completely understandable.

Wanting the best education for your own child in the system available and believing in principle that the system is fair and just for all are two very different things IMO.
mattsurf
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:44 am

Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by mattsurf »

Proud_Dad wrote:
mattsurf wrote:Finally, even if there are faults with the process, many people on this forum, myself included, would not be in favour of trying to discredit the whole system; 90%+ of the people here are strongly supportive of Grammar School education in principle
Where do you get that figure of 90%+ from? :? The majority of people who use this site do so because they want help and advice to try and ensure that their children do well in the 11plus test and end up going to a Grammar school because they feel this will provide a better education for their child than the alternative. This is completely understandable.

Wanting the best education for your own child in the system available and believing in principle that the system is fair and just for all are two very different things IMO.
Yes, you make a good point.

Also, my statement of 90%+ is lacking any quantitative validity
Amber
Posts: 8058
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by Amber »

Proud_Dad wrote: The majority of people who use this site do so because they want help and advice to try and ensure that their children do well in the 11plus test and end up going to a Grammar school because they feel this will provide a better education for their child than the alternative. This is completely understandable.

Wanting the best education for your own child in the system available and believing in principle that the system is fair and just for all are two very different things IMO.
I have two children in grammar school and one who left a couple of years ago. I despise and loathe the idea of selective education and am a great example of either a rotten hypocrite (which I have been called) or someone who is trying really hard to change the 'system' (in inverted commas as there isn't actually a system any more) while also benefiting from it.
andyrob wrote:I'm asking you to consider whether the test itself, nothing else, treats fairly the children of our changing population and accurately allocates GS places to the brightest 25% - some of whom at the age of 10 are not always very good, maybe just a little bit slower, when doing the necessary reading and writing for the test.
Why do you think that selecting at 10 is more unfair on bilingual children than on any other minority group? I think your posts just focus on yet another aspect of the whole sorry mess which makes it a mockery in its presumed stated aim of selecting the brightest children. What it actually does, and what it always has done, is select the children most able to pass a test from within a very small subset of children who have a fair chance of passing the test - being middle class helps a whole lot, as does being sent to a tutor, having parents who are very interested in your education, etc. It is hardly a level playing field to start with, and being a migrant isn't going to do much to smooth it out!

It would be very interesting to see it tackled from a social justice point of view if you could find a way of doing it - but I bet you can't. The current government is sympathetic in large part to the idea of selection and it's a ready vote-winner in the leafy suburbs of some of the counties over-represented on this forum. Including my own. :oops:
SlighlyStressedMum
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Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by SlighlyStressedMum »

No I don't think it's fair either and I too am not a fan of selective education. I also have sacrificed my principles and sent my eldest to a Grammar because out of the seven senior schools in our town, I feel it's the best fit for him. I won't be considering it for my middle child because he wouldn't cope nor does he want to go. Is it fair he won't benefit from the same education as his brother? Well no it isn't but then he wouldn't want it?

I don't know what the answer is to be honest. I am not sure there is an answer.
andyrob
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:19 pm

Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by andyrob »

Amber wrote:
Proud_Dad wrote: Why do you think that selecting at 10 is more unfair on bilingual children than on any other minority group?

I don't think the 11+ treatment of bilingual children is more 'unfair' (I prefer 'unsympathetic') than any of the minority groups such as those you listed yesterday, it's just that this group is the one that has become much more numerically prominent than previously. I would agree though that many other groups are treated unfairly / unsympathetically. One could never imagine the needs of a partially sighted pupil, who cannot read without appropriate help, would be ignored. The dyslexic child (at least the one who's managed to get an EHC Plan) likewise.

Before this discussion moves further down the road of whether the 11+ can ever be fair, I would like to sympathise with the 'principles' dilemma SlighlyStressedMum experienced. As a parent I did also - just as when I applied for my first job in a GS many years ago. Back then, if you wanted to teach up to A-level in a selective area, you had to teach in a GS.

You might be interested to know that a lot - perhaps the majority - of the many GS teachers I know also feel they had to sacrifice their principles in order to best support their families and career prospects. Today, most current GS staff were taught in comprehensive schools but even decades ago there was a significant lack of sympathy for the mechanics of selection at 11 and even less for Y8 and Y9 transfers (both ways) which were intended to correct the mistakes made at 11.
kenyancowgirl
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Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:59 pm

Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by kenyancowgirl »

I am still confused....your third posting (where you criticised me) said that this weekend you were starting to prepare an appeal for a child who you feel had been disadvantaged...and now you say "I didn't start this thread to support an appeal, or get advice. This forum, and the 'General' section in particular, is surely not just for simple Q&As and a good place for a debate/discussion/argument by those who do have the time or inclination to contribute.

I repeat - I was, and continue to be, wondering only if and how the 'accessibility' of the test, and subsequent standardisation of marks, takes account of bilingualism. I'm certainly not 'attacking' the weaknesses of the system I have been immersed in as a child, parent and teacher for more than 50 years. "


So, is it an appeal where you are looking for advice, a general discussion (and please don't make assumptions that everyone is in favour of a GS system so long as their child benefits, because that simply isn't true) or for something else?

Nothing about selecting at 10 is particularly fair - a system like CEM that includes NVR helps to remove the bias of non English speaking children and maths is maths pretty much in any language. A high level of English is required for a majority of subjects at GCSE and A level so I can understand why ability in that is measured. How you measure fluency in English for a non English speaker is hard - and could be open to abuse, particularly if it lead to leeway on a selective test - let's face it, we have seen all sorts of dubious practices with people trying to gain the upper hand! The question of fairness to the particular group you identify would have to come second to the fact that GS don't exist all over the country so some children, local or otherwise, have no access to them at all!

And, as I am still not really sure what you are trying to identify, just in case, I do not give permission for my words to be used elsewhere.
mystery
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by mystery »

andyrob wrote:In asking this question I perhaps should say I was a teacher in several Grammar Schools for very many years and, most recently, an LEA adviser. I also had my own children go through the 11+ and GS system so know it well as a parent too.

FIrst, don't be surprised at how puzzling/frustrating/unfair (for some)/challenging etc etc the whole process is. I never resolved my doubts about the whole process, either as a teacher or parent.

Anyway, I worked exclusively in schools that had a very low proportion of children who spoke English either bi-lingually or as a weak second language. So I never thought about the suitability of the various tests used, in particular the VR tests, for children whose ability was being assessed using a language with which they were not wholly comfortable. I know little about the problems faced by children who perhaps speak English only in school.

Have the various 11+ test procedures used across the country for the past 70 years ever taken account of any special, individual or group needs of certain children - as has long been the case in GCSE, A-level and degree-level examinations?

As KCG points out below, blue is reserved for moderator comments so I have changed the colour of your font to black. - moderator.
I apologise that I have not read this thread, only your opening post so I am now interrupting the flow of the thread. I have always had this same concern for children for whom English is a second language and maybe who have not been learning or using English for many years at the time of the test. My concern increased with the rise in popularity of 11 plus tests which seem to give an increased weighting to test elements which involve an extensive English vocabulary.

There are many unfairnesses in selective entrance tests. This is one of many that can arise and does not seem to be "regulated" in any way despite the schools themselves and the tests being funded by the taxpayer.
andyrob
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:19 pm

Re: 11+ and bilingual children (and now, also, younger child

Post by andyrob »

kenyancowgirl wrote:I am still confused..... . . . .(and please don't make assumptions that everyone is in favour of a GS system so long as their child benefits, because that simply isn't true) And, as I am still not really sure what you are trying to identify, just in case, I do not give permission for my words to be used elsewhere.
I really did not expect this to be the contentious topic it has become for some people. The teacher in me wants to try to explain, again, my simple question but, as the PM used to say in PMQ's " I refer the Hon Lady to the answer I gave before".

And I don't remember saying anything that suggested I thought "everyone favoured a GS system so long as their child benefits". Indeed I've known many parents over the years who felt that it was better to have the opportunity to 'fail' the test than not to have that opportunity at all. I would say to them that some of the best students I ever taught were those who 'failed' at 11, transferred into the 6th form at 16 and took a scholarship to Oxbridge at 18. The late developers.

Experiences of this forum in the past seem, perhaps, not to have been all good. But I can assure you that I will not use, and would not want to use your words elsewhere. Or anyone else's for that matter.
kenyancowgirl wrote: . . .. a system like CEM that includes NVR helps to remove the bias of non English speaking children and maths is maths pretty much in any language. A high level of English is required for a majority of subjects at GCSE and A level so I can understand why ability in that is measured.
Yes, I agree with you here to some extent but first, here in Lincs, we used to have 3 tests including one NVR/maths based test, but now only two. I remember the Maths/Physics people being appalled by the dropping of that 3rd test. The test used this year is new and I've not seen the papers but I have been told, by some who have, that Test 2 is very different from previously and a return to a NVR/maths format.

The VR Test 1 needs a good understanding of words that are not commonly used in day-to-day Y5/6 teaching or in most homes - hence the need for preparation and familiarisation. Bilingual children can often be well behind in English at this age but, as others have pointed out, this weakness rapidly disappears. This happens especially in secondary school where they spend more time outside the often close family group where a foreign language can be used all the time and any English vocabulary is simple.

So far as the Lincs new Test 2 is concerned, maths is not, unfortunately, maths. The language used to frame the questions was difficult, even for the two children I know who passed it. They said one difficult aspect of Test 2 was understanding the questions which seem to have had a high reading age for a test that is supposed to be non-verbal. Again, to the significant disadvantage of the bilingual child.

Others here have agreed that the 11+ has its weaknesses. But I find it odd that many people seem willing to accept the status quo and that so few seem to want to make the system work as well as possible, for all children, and especially in the context of the Access Arrangements used in other educational settings.
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