Can you buy your way into a grammar school??
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11+mum
Melx, yes it would make very interesting findings. I would happily contribute but I am presuming the site organisers would have to arrange this. Anyone know?
Bewildered, my point is that I believe that children who pass the 11+ with tutoring, may or may not be more suited to a grammar school education. Those who only passed because of the tutoring are probably less likely to thrive in that environment than those who passed without tutoring. I am keen to point out that i'm not against tutoring per se but interested to look at all angles of this subject.
Patricia, thanks for pointing out the other link which makes very interesting reading. However, I do feel even more in the minority for not providing any tutoring for my son (am I?? other parents please respond!!). I am very happy that he passed on his own merits and I believe he will be suited to and do very well at grammar school. I just hope now that he gets his first choice grammar school!
Bewildered, my point is that I believe that children who pass the 11+ with tutoring, may or may not be more suited to a grammar school education. Those who only passed because of the tutoring are probably less likely to thrive in that environment than those who passed without tutoring. I am keen to point out that i'm not against tutoring per se but interested to look at all angles of this subject.
Patricia, thanks for pointing out the other link which makes very interesting reading. However, I do feel even more in the minority for not providing any tutoring for my son (am I?? other parents please respond!!). I am very happy that he passed on his own merits and I believe he will be suited to and do very well at grammar school. I just hope now that he gets his first choice grammar school!
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Guest
In reply to Bewildered about tutoring going on for many years. I have just spoken to me mum. She is 60 and although not privately tutored, she said she had papers to do every night from the Primary school for a whole year.
My dad failed his on purpose. They were both against heavy handed, intensive coaching. Our daughter did one practise pack in the summer holidays before the Lincolnshire test in the September. She scored very highly.
We asked the Head if she would be ok sitting the exam. She said a good rule of thumb she went by was children who scored Level 5's in the Y5 optional Sats would cope with the work. She was very worried about some parents having tutors for their kids saying it's alright getting in but they then have to keep up with the work once they are there.
I guess it's down to choice, but I think that may be a school report and Sat's Results should be part of the selection too.
My dad failed his on purpose. They were both against heavy handed, intensive coaching. Our daughter did one practise pack in the summer holidays before the Lincolnshire test in the September. She scored very highly.
We asked the Head if she would be ok sitting the exam. She said a good rule of thumb she went by was children who scored Level 5's in the Y5 optional Sats would cope with the work. She was very worried about some parents having tutors for their kids saying it's alright getting in but they then have to keep up with the work once they are there.
I guess it's down to choice, but I think that may be a school report and Sat's Results should be part of the selection too.
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11+mum
Yes, me again!!
Given all the comments on this thread and others about tutoring I would like to make the following points from a purely personal point of view to anyone reading this who wonders whether 11+ tutoring is right for their child - particularly as I keep banging on about my son not having tutoring but I haven't really explained why yet.
Firstly I re-iterate that I am not against tutoring per se, but these are the reasons why we, as parents decided against it for our son:-
1. Our son is bright, enthusiastic and committed to his school work and he is very competitive and keen to do well. We did not want to risk him feeling under pressure from tutoring.
2. We thought that if he had the right ability and learning style for grammar school then he would pass the test. (yes, it was a risk)
3. If he didn't pass, we didn't want him to feel a failure in any way and the provision of tutoring might have made him feel we were disappointed in him by putting too much emphasis on success.
4. We made it clear that we were very proud of him whether he passed or not and that at the end of the day it didn't really matter either way.
5. Like every other parent, we want the best for our son and it occurred to us that although he is bright and doing very well at primary school, it might be that an upper school style of education might suit him better and if he didn't make the 121, then that is what we take from this. Better to succeed in upper rather than struggle at grammar?
Many of our son's peers did not pass the 11+ and they did receive tutoring. I do wonder if the pressure of tutoring and the parent's desire for a pass played any hand in the result, not to mention the childs' feelings of despair and failure.
Again, this is personal opinion and suited our child's circumstances. I'm not saying this is right. It was right for us. It might be helpful to others to share.
Given all the comments on this thread and others about tutoring I would like to make the following points from a purely personal point of view to anyone reading this who wonders whether 11+ tutoring is right for their child - particularly as I keep banging on about my son not having tutoring but I haven't really explained why yet.
Firstly I re-iterate that I am not against tutoring per se, but these are the reasons why we, as parents decided against it for our son:-
1. Our son is bright, enthusiastic and committed to his school work and he is very competitive and keen to do well. We did not want to risk him feeling under pressure from tutoring.
2. We thought that if he had the right ability and learning style for grammar school then he would pass the test. (yes, it was a risk)
3. If he didn't pass, we didn't want him to feel a failure in any way and the provision of tutoring might have made him feel we were disappointed in him by putting too much emphasis on success.
4. We made it clear that we were very proud of him whether he passed or not and that at the end of the day it didn't really matter either way.
5. Like every other parent, we want the best for our son and it occurred to us that although he is bright and doing very well at primary school, it might be that an upper school style of education might suit him better and if he didn't make the 121, then that is what we take from this. Better to succeed in upper rather than struggle at grammar?
Many of our son's peers did not pass the 11+ and they did receive tutoring. I do wonder if the pressure of tutoring and the parent's desire for a pass played any hand in the result, not to mention the childs' feelings of despair and failure.
Again, this is personal opinion and suited our child's circumstances. I'm not saying this is right. It was right for us. It might be helpful to others to share.
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Bewildered
- Posts: 1806
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:29 pm
- Location: Berkshire
I agree. If they took the school assessment, and 'progress made' into account, it would help level the playing field. The school's are well aware of their most able students, but on an academic front only. The able students, who are able in other area's such a music, sport, chess, tennis, art etc shouldn't be overlooked either.Anonymous wrote: I guess it's down to choice, but I think that may be a school report and Sat's Results should be part of the selection too.
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11+mum
Hi Guest,
Interesting points! If we are going to go back years, then I can recall when I took my 11+..............
I was not tutored, I felt no pressure to pass but I am competitive and I always do my best. I did not pass my 11+ and I was probably not right for grammar school education. My best friend did pass (yes, you've guessed it, she was tutored!)
I met up wth her aged 16 and I had just passed all my exams, whereas my friend had struggled at grammar school at bombed in all her exams.
Ok, this does not prove anything and we all have different stories to tell but my experiences then probably affect how I feel now.
Interesting points! If we are going to go back years, then I can recall when I took my 11+..............
I was not tutored, I felt no pressure to pass but I am competitive and I always do my best. I did not pass my 11+ and I was probably not right for grammar school education. My best friend did pass (yes, you've guessed it, she was tutored!)
I met up wth her aged 16 and I had just passed all my exams, whereas my friend had struggled at grammar school at bombed in all her exams.
Ok, this does not prove anything and we all have different stories to tell but my experiences then probably affect how I feel now.
tutoring etc
Just wanted to pick you up on this point INEX
Unless perhaps you mean that every child (except the bottom 10% or so with serious learning difficulties) could in principle be taught the skills necessary to answer correctly the % of questions in any given test currently set as the pass mark - that is a different statement, and may be true (if the whole of the primary curriculum were dedicated to teaching 11+ style questions rather than SATS......). But then that 90% of children would be theoretically eligible to go to "grammar" schools, which would not be the same as grammar schools currently are in some areas, but would be more like some comprehensives....
I'm only waffling really here, from a position of having passed the 11+ myself years ago in Kent but being glad we live in an area where most of the local children stay at the local comp, which has so far served my children well 11-16. And to add to the anecdotes, a friend's daughter did take the Warwickshire 11+ when there was a catchment difficulty locally (and was offered a place with I believe only the official practice session, certainly no tutoring as it was a very last minute decision - she ended up at the local comp anyway and emerged with nearly all A*). A couple of other boys I know have gone to Birmingham KE grammars at 11 - they were always exceptionally bright at junior school.
- surely if even in the widest areas grammars take at most the top 25-30% then (by definition) the test must be failed by 70% of children, including those in the middle range around "average".Any child with normal brains can pass any 11+ plus
Unless perhaps you mean that every child (except the bottom 10% or so with serious learning difficulties) could in principle be taught the skills necessary to answer correctly the % of questions in any given test currently set as the pass mark - that is a different statement, and may be true (if the whole of the primary curriculum were dedicated to teaching 11+ style questions rather than SATS......). But then that 90% of children would be theoretically eligible to go to "grammar" schools, which would not be the same as grammar schools currently are in some areas, but would be more like some comprehensives....
I'm only waffling really here, from a position of having passed the 11+ myself years ago in Kent but being glad we live in an area where most of the local children stay at the local comp, which has so far served my children well 11-16. And to add to the anecdotes, a friend's daughter did take the Warwickshire 11+ when there was a catchment difficulty locally (and was offered a place with I believe only the official practice session, certainly no tutoring as it was a very last minute decision - she ended up at the local comp anyway and emerged with nearly all A*). A couple of other boys I know have gone to Birmingham KE grammars at 11 - they were always exceptionally bright at junior school.
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Guest
11plus mum I agree with all you have to say. We engaged much of the same when our daughter took hers.
A tale of another parent in daughter's year. A girl average ability, head teacher had concerns about amount of tuturing taking place for the girl to keep up with normal school work let alone 11 plus on top. Mother said she would buy this girl a playstaion if she got into her first choice Grammar, a DS is she got in to second. The poor kid got neither as she got her 3rd choice. Not happy the child had passed the mother was furious with child. School reports surely would go someway to spotting this sort of thing.
A tale of another parent in daughter's year. A girl average ability, head teacher had concerns about amount of tuturing taking place for the girl to keep up with normal school work let alone 11 plus on top. Mother said she would buy this girl a playstaion if she got into her first choice Grammar, a DS is she got in to second. The poor kid got neither as she got her 3rd choice. Not happy the child had passed the mother was furious with child. School reports surely would go someway to spotting this sort of thing.
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herewegoagain
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:10 pm
11-plus mum, I think you're making an assumption that state primary schools all offer the same standard of education. In many cases, tutoring is necessary to make up for the failings of the school. As with Inex, my children would not have covered the curriculum in maths by the time of the tests without tutoring. Even without tutors, it's not a level playing field!
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11+mum
Hi herewegoagain,
Indeed. On reading so many comments on various threads I am fully aware of the uneven playing field and many different circumstances, which is why I am not against tutoring per se. It is up to the individual to decide, I can only make decisions based on my own situation, beliefs and preferences.
Indeed. On reading so many comments on various threads I am fully aware of the uneven playing field and many different circumstances, which is why I am not against tutoring per se. It is up to the individual to decide, I can only make decisions based on my own situation, beliefs and preferences.
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had enough
That is why most people come on this site, to gather the info and decide for themselves and sometimes get some help.It is up to the individual to decide, I can only make decisions based on my own situation, beliefs and preferences.
Which is why I don't understand why you feel so hard done by with others' decisions. The truth is many a child who is a slow developer might blossom in years to come and a early genius might burn out too soon.
I have been on this forum for long time and I have yet to see any of the posters here demand a place for their child because they had been tutored and not made the grade for that particular year.
Perhaps your experience is of your local area but it does feel as though you are of the 'No, it is never necessary to tutor any child for grammar' camp.However, I am sick of hearing about parents who feel that paying for extra tuition should have helped their child get a grammar school place. This only adds fuel to the comments I see time and again that grammar schools are for the rich and that the only way your child is likely to pass the 11+ is to buy the extra coaching
There will always be parents who do harm to their children but I think they are in the minorty and certainly hope non of them are lurking on this forum.
Perhaps I am reading it wrong.
