Can you buy your way into a grammar school??

Discussion of the 11 Plus

Moderators: Section Moderators, Forum Moderators

11 Plus Mocks - Practise the real exam experience - Book Now
11+mum

Post by 11+mum »

Hi hadenough.

Thank you for your comments. I would like to respond to the points you make:-

[That is why most people come on this site, to gather the info and decide for themselves and sometimes get some help. Which is why I don't understand why you feel so hard done by with others' decisions]

I came onto this site after reading threads about tutoring. I found myself annoyed by the number of comments I read which seemed to suggest that children could only pass with tutoring and this drove me to make the initial posting to say that it can happen - a child can pass without tutoring. If it sounds that I feel hard done by, then that certainly wasn't my intention. My son was successful, so I have no reason to feel that way but I do have an interest in what other people think, it is a highly emotive subject after all! :D



Me, neither - that wasn't my point at all :?

[it does feel as though you are of the 'No, it is never necessary to tutor any child for grammar' camp.]

Again, that wasn't my intention - I have said a number of times that I am not against tutoring per se. I was just seeking some acknowledgement that it is possible to pass without tutoring.

[There will always be parents who do harm to their children but I think they are in the minorty and certainly hope non of them are lurking on this forum]

I agree. These pages are full of parents wanting the best for their children. I do think there are some though, that in their quest to do the best for their child lose sight of the possibility that they might be more suited to upper school. I may be wrong but its just a feeling I get from some of the comments.
Guest55
Posts: 16254
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:21 pm

Post by Guest55 »

As a GS teacher I fell the Bucks VR is a far from perfect test - some very bright children just don't 'get' the VR questions - a few can get through but get average levels KS2 [3 x 4s] and struggle.
jazzteddy

To tutor or not?

Post by jazzteddy »

My sons school did not do any practise papers at all for the 11 plus, lots of work was done towards gaining great SAT results. So our son when faced with verbal reasoning questions for the first time would have been at a disadvantage compared to others whose schools had either done papers or done verbal reasoning type questions.
Therefore whilst we felt uneasy paying for a tutor, we do feel that the £160 we spent on 8 private lessons helped familiarize him with what he was about to face.
His school results for SAT's showed him to be top of his class in all subjects, his reading age was 16+, all his teachers agreed that a grammar education would be right for him.
We all approach the pospect of finding the right school for our children in different ways, those who can afford a bit more tuition will undoubtedly want to pay for a few extra lessons. As I said earlier I do not feel that brains can be bought. Yes, it is possible that a few children may gain grammar places because of tutoring, but in the main, true ability does shine through. The boys at my sons school had varying amounts of home and private tuition, some had a lot more than others, but this seems to have had very little effect on how high thay scored in the test. They have chatted amongst themselves about where they came in the 11 plus and it really does seem that most of the boys got their places because they deserved them, not because mum and dad bought them.

One thing is for certain we are all just trying to offer our children the best education we can and thats not so bad, is it.
Good luck all!
Guest

Post by Guest »

11+mum wrote: 2. We thought that if he had the right ability and learning style for grammar school then he would pass the test. (yes, it was a risk)

That's the point, as far as I'm concerned. You were happy to risk it.

I have a very able son also, but I was not prepared to g-a-m-b-l-e with his future. I was not prepared to 'risk it'. I don't g-a-m-b-l-e and with such an important decision it was unthinkable. I am happy with my decision to home tutor, to ensure (as far as possible) that the playing field was level, and as Jazzteddy has stated at the end of the day, usually only the most able in each school, are the one's that qualify. As my son did get L5's in his SAT's in yr5, I know it is the right place for him.

I believe that most of the posters on this forum, don't wish to g-a-m-b-l-e with their children's future's either.
katel
Posts: 960
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:30 pm

Post by katel »

The think I find really depressing is that, although my daughter wasn't formally tutored, I was in position to buy some practice papers and do them with her, she has grown up surrounded by books and has had two parents who are interested in her and her education. There were plenty of children in her year who were as bright if not brighter but didn't have the advantages that she had. She passed, thereby adding to the advantages she was born with. They didn't, thereby missing an opportunity to step out of disadvantage.

And, ironically, 5 (to my knowledge - there may have been more) of these children got 3 5s in their SATS - unlike my daughter who got 5,5,4!
georgina

Post by georgina »

You know i am of the impression that there is no way that you can buy a place in a grammar school ,even if a child is tutored it is not completely true to owe the childs passing entirely to the tutor,because all tutors only work with pupils for a fraction of their learning time.I just believe that a tutored child will benefit if the tutor has something to work with in the first place. Only a truly able child will pass their 11plus with or without tutoring.
My daughter is very able but i did not want to GAMBLE, as someone put it ,i am not ashamed of having her tutored and i will do it again and again if it will ensure a bright future for my kids.
sj355
Posts: 1149
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:07 pm
Location: Finchley - Barnet

Post by sj355 »

herewegoagain wrote:11-plus mum, I think you're making an assumption that state primary schools all offer the same standard of education. In many cases, tutoring is necessary to make up for the failings of the school. As with Inex, my children would not have covered the curriculum in maths by the time of the tests without tutoring. Even without tutors, it's not a level playing field!
Yes, this is a fact, as within two months of tutoring in English (just 1.5 hours a week) my son jumped from below the average in his class to the top of the class. I started tutoring 11 months before the exams (with long breaks for vacations and summer), but continued for 6 months after the exams given the tremedous benefits this had to my child's education, knowledge and confidence. The tutor did English reading and comprehension with my son, not just papers' practising (she always did more of the former in any case, and completely dropped the latter immediatelly after the exams).

PS. So as an afterthought the question for me and other parents in a similar position to me is not the one at the top of this thread, but the rather more humble:

"Can you (should you) buy your way out of the lousy education your child receives at primary school?" and the answer to this is you most certainly should if you can!
sj355
Bad Dad
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:42 am
Location: South Warwickshire

Post by Bad Dad »

I don't understand why they use such narrow testing for many versions of the 11 plus. Surely cramming would be less effective if the kids were tested using questions taken from the whole National Curriculum covered so far?

My area is only semi-selective and there is huge competition for places - around 900 kids taking the test to get into a school with 90 places, and the 900 have all been put forward by parents who believe they stand a very good chance. The testing is 2 VR papers (NFER Standard - 15 types). A substantial number of the successful candidates come from the local 11-plus sausage factories (a.k.a. prep schools) where they have been trained for the last 2 years to do the VR and are bussed in on the day. I reckon you could train any averagely able child to do the logic-based questions. Granted, coming to them cold, they are very difficult. I agee with what a previous poster said to the effect that even bright children might not understand what they were being asked to do. However, they are actually very formulaic and easy to tackle using simple to learn stategies. That just leaves a few vocabulary-based questions as a differentiator.

With a score of 90%+ required to get in, it is all about repetitive practicing of the strategies to get as fast and accurate as possible, like a trained monkey. You shouldn't even need to read the question at the top of each section. I don't believe even a top 1% child in terms of potential could get in without (a) cash for a tutor or private school or (b) a nice educated middle class parent to coach them. I think it would be hard to invent a less equitable system if you tried.

DISCLAIMER: all my conclusions are based on heresay gleaned on this forum. I apologise if I am wrongly informed
chad
Posts: 1647
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:49 pm
Location: berkshire

Post by chad »

Not all 11+ entry schools use just VR..... Slough schools use VR, NVR & Maths which , I believe, gives a slightly broader testing procedure. The reason that the national Curriculum is not used .....apparently using it would place more emphasis on the quality of teaching in Primary school.
11+mum

Post by 11+mum »

Guest,

I do take exception to the assumption that I was g-a-m-b-l-i-n-g with my son's future. You make it sound that I was being negligent!! Was it so wrong of me to trust the 11+ for what it was and accept that if he didn't pass then he was probably more suited to an upper school education?

Like other parents, I want what is best for ny child and I do not believe g-a-m-b-l-i-n-g is the right word to use. Would you say then that every parent wo does not engage tutoring is gambling with their future??

Ok, so I mentioned the word risk but that was tongue in cheek!................................would you have been happier if I said that actually, I was quietly confident that he would pass anyway because he is head and shoulders above his peers? Would I be then be accused of being pompous or big-headed?

Seems I can't win and so comments like these smack ever so slightly of sour grapes.............hope I'm wrong!
Locked