Effects of 11+ on the kids.
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Guest
A perfect environment will never exist in any school or workplace because there will ALWAYS be lazy and disruptive people in this world! This is something we all face throughout life and we just have to do the BEST WE CAN in any given situation.
I feel DOING THE BEST WE CAN in this situation is for bright children (whose parents can't afford private education) to go the Grammar school route.
No doubt even the private schools have their fair share of disruptions?!
I feel DOING THE BEST WE CAN in this situation is for bright children (whose parents can't afford private education) to go the Grammar school route.
No doubt even the private schools have their fair share of disruptions?!
please correct me if i am wrong .
my underdtanding of practices in a Grammar school is that individual achievement is both progressed and rewarded positively.
Each child is encouraged to aim a little bit beyond their existing capabilities.
this sort of environment is not so forthcoming in comps. and some not all are encouraged to put in the extra effort.
sometimes, i understand that the more able students are not being challenged enough.
my child thrives off competition , which is not always a positive thing , but is also taught to be a good team member, my fear is that if not challenged and motivated enough, they will not achieve their best.
my underdtanding of practices in a Grammar school is that individual achievement is both progressed and rewarded positively.
Each child is encouraged to aim a little bit beyond their existing capabilities.
this sort of environment is not so forthcoming in comps. and some not all are encouraged to put in the extra effort.
sometimes, i understand that the more able students are not being challenged enough.
my child thrives off competition , which is not always a positive thing , but is also taught to be a good team member, my fear is that if not challenged and motivated enough, they will not achieve their best.
ymcc
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Guest
well I'll probably get flamed for this but I completely disagree with coaching/tuition for 11+.
1) it completely defeats the object.the 11+ is not a test to be passed or failed it is an assessment of a child's aptitude.It is not in a child's best interest to be pushed to a point where theyt just scrape through and spend the next 7 years at the bottom of the class.Setting them up to fail is the phrase which springs to mind.
2) If a child is suitable for a grammar school education they will sail through without coaching
3Nelsons tests (the VR and NVR anyway)are designed to test potential and to not be significantly altered by coaching.Nelsons own research shows that only a very small improvement in score is acheived through coaching and 50 % of this improvement occurs by doing just 1 practice paper and 100% after doing 5.More than that and the pressure in children is increased so much it affects their score negatively as well of course as compromising their emotional and mental well-being.
1) it completely defeats the object.the 11+ is not a test to be passed or failed it is an assessment of a child's aptitude.It is not in a child's best interest to be pushed to a point where theyt just scrape through and spend the next 7 years at the bottom of the class.Setting them up to fail is the phrase which springs to mind.
2) If a child is suitable for a grammar school education they will sail through without coaching
3Nelsons tests (the VR and NVR anyway)are designed to test potential and to not be significantly altered by coaching.Nelsons own research shows that only a very small improvement in score is acheived through coaching and 50 % of this improvement occurs by doing just 1 practice paper and 100% after doing 5.More than that and the pressure in children is increased so much it affects their score negatively as well of course as compromising their emotional and mental well-being.
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Guest
Well I do agree with you to some degree (above post) but in our case pragmatism won over idealism. I am currently caught up in the hideous process of applying for schools in London using the centralised CAF sytem. To say the process is stressful would be an enormous understatement.
We are able to apply to two fiercely competive Grammar School who accept a large proportion of boys from prep schools across London. My son attends a local state primary but has always been very bright HOWEVER I do not think it has been possible for him to reach his full potential by relying on the teaching he receives at school. I would also be denying him the best chance possible of securing a place if I did not support his learning. So off we went down the tutor + home learning route.
The process has not made him brighter than he already was but my goodness he knows how to sit an exam now! Had I not tutored him I honestly believe he would have been seriously disadvantaged compared to boys attending prep schools in the area. I know from his tutor that, at her school, the children do a minimum of 2 lessons of VR per week from yr 3.
In our case I have very much disliked the process and there have been times that I have wanted to call a halt to it all but it is a means to an end. I know my son will sit comfortably at a Grammar school - I think the hard part is getting them in. I would not want my son to be bottom of the heap but that it where parental judgement must come into it - I would not ask him to do the work if I didn't think he was capable.
We are able to apply to two fiercely competive Grammar School who accept a large proportion of boys from prep schools across London. My son attends a local state primary but has always been very bright HOWEVER I do not think it has been possible for him to reach his full potential by relying on the teaching he receives at school. I would also be denying him the best chance possible of securing a place if I did not support his learning. So off we went down the tutor + home learning route.
The process has not made him brighter than he already was but my goodness he knows how to sit an exam now! Had I not tutored him I honestly believe he would have been seriously disadvantaged compared to boys attending prep schools in the area. I know from his tutor that, at her school, the children do a minimum of 2 lessons of VR per week from yr 3.
In our case I have very much disliked the process and there have been times that I have wanted to call a halt to it all but it is a means to an end. I know my son will sit comfortably at a Grammar school - I think the hard part is getting them in. I would not want my son to be bottom of the heap but that it where parental judgement must come into it - I would not ask him to do the work if I didn't think he was capable.
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sleepless
Effects of the 11+ on children
The 11+ should be banned! I have children in both grammar and comp and have been extremely pleased with both but I still thinkthe 11+ should be stopped. It is incredibly stressful for both children and parents, especially those who live in an area where the selectives are the only half way decent schools. However, getting rid of the system would spread the load as far as ability was concerned and would give the less than decent schools half a chance.
As for tutoring, I believe it has to be done, one way or the other. It doesn't matter whether it is with outside help or achieved by parents/carers at home. The problem is that the bandwagon is moving on. If every parent stopped paying for private tuition then the field would be even (at least as far as the state educated are concerned) but it is not going to happen and if a child who is bright is tutored then other children who are also bright will need to be tutored.
I have read the NFR research too and would never disagree with the experts but I think most people whose children are tutored in verbal or non verbal reasoning will agree that it does appear to make quite a hefty difference. A bright child without tutoring could miss out on a grammar school place to a less bright child who has had tutoring. I have seen this happen before. It is a question of whether you are prepared to take a moral stand on the issue and say "no" I don't believe in tutoring and therefore my child is not going to have that advantage.
I don't think it is a question of those that are bright will get in anyway. I think it is the case that those that are "gifted" will get iin anyway. There is, as I believe I have said on another thread, a huge difference between bright and gifted and there are a lot of bright children and very very few truly gifted ones. I would say that the chance of a grammar school filling an entire year group with "gifted" pupils was virtually zero. That leaves the playing field bare for a fight between all the bright ones Every advantage a plus point.
As for struggling in grammars, I have no doubt that it does happen but with the majority of children being tutored or having private primary education (sometimes both!!) then surely they are all going to be in the same boat.
Incidentally, I quote a comment from an acquaintance of mine who was at a top grammar school in the UK tll fairly recently. This person said...
"Our school is like being on a sinking ship. It is such hard going that every now and again its "man overboard" and we all have to get together and man the lifeboats to rescue the person from drowning under the weight of it all".
This was said to me by a truly gifted person who got easily into grammar school without tutoring. They disliked the school immensely because they felt that the expectations were too high and too constant and that noone was allowed to be themselves. No nurses, only doctors, no legal PA's, only barristors, no dental receptionists, only dentists, etc, etc. Any other ambitions and the school was not impressed!!
My children, on the other hand, go to a grammar school which is very much "whole person" orientated and they feel to make their own choices and be who they really are. The same can also be said for my child at comprehensive school where, incidentally, achievement is rewarded much more often. In grammars, it tends to be expected!
As for tutoring, I believe it has to be done, one way or the other. It doesn't matter whether it is with outside help or achieved by parents/carers at home. The problem is that the bandwagon is moving on. If every parent stopped paying for private tuition then the field would be even (at least as far as the state educated are concerned) but it is not going to happen and if a child who is bright is tutored then other children who are also bright will need to be tutored.
I have read the NFR research too and would never disagree with the experts but I think most people whose children are tutored in verbal or non verbal reasoning will agree that it does appear to make quite a hefty difference. A bright child without tutoring could miss out on a grammar school place to a less bright child who has had tutoring. I have seen this happen before. It is a question of whether you are prepared to take a moral stand on the issue and say "no" I don't believe in tutoring and therefore my child is not going to have that advantage.
I don't think it is a question of those that are bright will get in anyway. I think it is the case that those that are "gifted" will get iin anyway. There is, as I believe I have said on another thread, a huge difference between bright and gifted and there are a lot of bright children and very very few truly gifted ones. I would say that the chance of a grammar school filling an entire year group with "gifted" pupils was virtually zero. That leaves the playing field bare for a fight between all the bright ones Every advantage a plus point.
As for struggling in grammars, I have no doubt that it does happen but with the majority of children being tutored or having private primary education (sometimes both!!) then surely they are all going to be in the same boat.
Incidentally, I quote a comment from an acquaintance of mine who was at a top grammar school in the UK tll fairly recently. This person said...
"Our school is like being on a sinking ship. It is such hard going that every now and again its "man overboard" and we all have to get together and man the lifeboats to rescue the person from drowning under the weight of it all".
This was said to me by a truly gifted person who got easily into grammar school without tutoring. They disliked the school immensely because they felt that the expectations were too high and too constant and that noone was allowed to be themselves. No nurses, only doctors, no legal PA's, only barristors, no dental receptionists, only dentists, etc, etc. Any other ambitions and the school was not impressed!!
My children, on the other hand, go to a grammar school which is very much "whole person" orientated and they feel to make their own choices and be who they really are. The same can also be said for my child at comprehensive school where, incidentally, achievement is rewarded much more often. In grammars, it tends to be expected!
