BBC Radio 4 Programme

Bewildered · Post by **Bewildered** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:53 pm

It did hi-light that an area like Bucks where GS's are a serious alternative for the majority have a completely different experience to those who don't.

The children all seem to be aware of it. The children seemed to be more willing to take it on, even though being just as nervous as every child before an exam, as they knew most of their peers were also doing the same.

Sally-Anne · Post by **Sally-Anne** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:59 pm

Hi Woodyrocks

Sorry - I was writing at the same time as you, and I added a hasty P.S. to my last message because I wanted to correct that point a.s.a.p.

woodyrocks wrote:The parent that chose to tutor her DD said she would get a pro' in for her younger daughter. She was sad that she had to go down that route but that it really does give the children a level playing field to start from.

I think that is also sad, because she clearly did a damn fine job in two months! And in the practice papers Kathleen achieved 69% - 71% - 76%. Her final score was clearly somewhere close to the likely pass mark of 68%, so Kathleen and her Mum did well, and a great deal better than Naomi's "professional" tutor, charging Â£1800.

woodyrocks wrote:To summarise, ALL the parents were, by the end anyway, for pro' tutoring.

I think that "pro" is a very strong word. I would say that they felt compelled to do it, rather than believed in it.

woodyrocks wrote:I listened to the girls speaking about being sick with stress and shaking all over

Not so (those dang notes again!) - Kathleen, home-tutored for only two months said that she was not worried and not stressed. Does that give us a clue as to the way forward?

In a sense I feel that this broadcast did professional tutors no favours at all. Naomi did not qualify, Jonathan did, although his "other" mark wasn't broadcast, and Kathleen came very close. Kathleen was happy and less stressed than the heavily tutored children, her parents' bank balance remained almost untouched and she was able to enjoy sleepovers with friends all summer without having to do 11+ practice.

I will be putting Patricia out of business if I carry on like this, so I should vanish for a while.

Sally-Anne

Tosca · Post by **Tosca** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:04 pm

Loopyloulou wrote:It does annoy me when people criticise the wealthy for sending their children to grammar schools - after all the rich pay their taxes too, in fact a lot more than most! I just don't see the problem.

Totally agree! And the present system is great because it is not properly supported by the state primaries. You can buy yourself a big advantage through tutoring, as the programme showed. The state system is too paralysed by guilt to properly adopt grammar schools and give all children an equal crack at it with preparation, and it can't abolish them because it would annoy too many people. Long may it continue! Yes, some really able children with parents who are not very switched on will lose out, giving better opportunities for us hard-working focussed parents. As far as I am concerned, tough luck to those children. It's the way of the world. Money talks! And long may it continue. And the hilarious bit is that those stupid parents who don't earn anough to tutor or for a prep are still helping to fund our children's brilliant education with the meagre taxes that they do pay. Outside Bucks, many other state schools don't even do a preparation paper or even inform parents that they are entitled to apply to the grammars. Heaven!

I don't know why we bother with free education anyway. We should save all our taxes and do away with it. Why should everyone be enititled to education? You don't need to know algebra to sweep the streets.

Tolstoy · Post by **Tolstoy** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:17 pm

I heard a trailer for it yesterday; the gist of it was that it's all middle class parents paying for tuition to get their kids in, leaving the bright but poor out on a limb.

If they hadn't meddled with the system in the first place those children would still be benifitting.

Tuition does help but only because the schools no longer prepare children in the way they did when the system was countrywide. My primary school gave me practice tests from atleast Y5 (standard four in my day) and we were well prepared for the 11+ regardless of our home circumstances. If they are so confident of the comprehensive system why the concern that some are opting out and choosing to go Grammar? In counties/towns/cities that no longer have Grammar schools there are still divides and these are even more devisive. Even double income households would struggle to buy property in certain postcodes without a large junk of inherited capital.

Yes by all means bring in this lottery system and eventually the schools will equal out but what caring parent is going to sacrifice their own children to an ideal in the meantime? Why should a whole generation be sacrificed because someone somewhere got it so badly wrong? Bet its not the their OWN children who get penalised? Oh no safely tucked away in some independent somewhere they will be (p.s not a pop at independents, if my children got landed with the local sink school then frankly I would be hocking all I possessed to avoid it, anyway I could) because I care and a good education is what counts!

Bewildered · Post by **Bewildered** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:44 pm

Tosca wrote:I don't know why we bother with free education anyway. We should save all our taxes and do away with it. Why should everyone be enititled to education? You don't need to know algebra to sweep the streets.

Wow, you'd do well in a country like India.
They have to pay for their education there. Thus it is highly valued and a strong Class system prevails.
The people who can't afford to send their children to school know with certainty that the life of their children will be a life of hard labouring jobs; jobs that pay a pittance. The pittance which won't then allow them to pay for an education for their own children, and so sadly the cycle continues.

Tosca · Post by **Tosca** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:45 pm

Tolstoy wrote: If they hadn't meddled with the system in the first place those children would still be benifitting.

Tuition does help but only because the schools no longer prepare children in the way they did when the system was countrywide.

..and who ended the countrywide system? Thatcher, of course. She knew exactly what she was doing and why, and Cameron is continuing the legacy by promising to build no more grammars. Yet, as this thread shows, people have very short memories and still blame the Left as the enemy of elite education for the less well off. All good stuff!

kittymum · Post by **kittymum** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:48 pm

Tosca wrote:
Loopyloulou wrote:It does annoy me when people criticise the wealthy for sending their children to grammar schools - after all the rich pay their taxes too, in fact a lot more than most! I just don't see the problem.
Totally agree! And the present system is great because it is not properly supported by the state primaries. You can buy yourself a big advantage through tutoring, as the programme showed. The state system is too paralysed by guilt to properly adopt grammar schools and give all children an equal crack at it with preparation, and it can't abolish them because it would annoy too many people. Long may it continue! Yes, some really able children with parents who are not very switched on will lose out, giving better opportunities for us hard-working focussed parents. As far as I am concerned, tough luck to those children. It's the way of the world. Money talks! And long may it continue. And the hilarious bit is that those stupid parents who don't earn anough to tutor or for a prep are still helping to fund our children's brilliant education with the meagre taxes that they do pay. Outside Bucks, many other state schools don't even do a preparation paper or even inform parents that they are entitled to apply to the grammars. Heaven!

I don't know why we bother with free education anyway. We should save all our taxes and do away with it. Why should everyone be enititled to education? You don't need to know algebra to sweep the streets.

Golly I can only hope that you are attempting some sort of humour with this post! I am truly shocked by the attitude you show - so much so that I've registered with this forum purely to post a reply.

I live in Bucks so my children will go through the 11+ and yes I hope they perform to the best of their abilities.

I'm sorry I'm too incensed by your comments to post further but I find your remarks truly offensive. I would ask the moderators of this site if they condone these views?

Tosca · Post by **Tosca** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:17 pm

Bewildered wrote:Wow, you'd do well in a country like India.
They have to pay for their education there. Thus it is highly valued and a strong Class system prevails.

Interesting points, Bewildered. We would do well to remember that India is the next global super power and we are on a downward spiral to nowhere. Perhaps we need to learn a thing or two from the Indian system.

Sally-Anne · Post by **Sally-Anne** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:25 pm

Please settle down everyone!

I am so disappointed that a thread about a radio programme has to turn into a very unpleasant political debate.

Sally-Anne

Tosca · Post by **Tosca** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:26 pm

kittymum wrote: I would ask the moderators of this site if they condone these views?

An amusing question, given that this site actually makes its money out of the system we heard about in the programme tonight. I am sure they certainly do condone the attitude that parents should have to spend money to work the system!

(I should add that moderators probably don't profit personally - I believe they work on a voluntary basis, but the site must be fairly lucrative.)