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 Post subject: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Story running in the Standard tonight. EDUCATION
Parents fear cheating as 11-plus paper is used again
 http://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/parents-fear-cheating-as-11plus-paper-is-used-again-8441355.html


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 Post subject: Re: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:47 pm 
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Not my area, but I'm not keen on their defence that they could only cheat if children remembered 75 VR questions etc. My DS could recite at least 20 of his. A tutor with several pupils could certainly gather plenty of info about the exam. And the stinky questions would be the ones that stuck in their head as they got worked up about them so those would be the ones that the tutors could then prepare children for. I think that they ought to be confident in themselves enough to produce a paper of equal difficulty. and if the results implied differently than I'm sure there could be some statistical adjustment - they seem to manage it for plenty of other things.

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 Post subject: Re: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Location: East Kent
This is why we always ask people not to discuss details of papers until the late sitters have taken the test.

The late sitters use the same paper , presumably to avoid another factor being introduced to the mix.

A slow news day and the journalist was hoping to stir up a bit of controversy?


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 Post subject: Re: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:06 am 
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Yoyo123' when are the last 11 plus papers taken? Are questions ever openly discussed on here? Not long till 1 march ...


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 Post subject: Re: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:08 am 
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JRM wrote:
Not my area, but I'm not keen on their defence that they could only cheat if children remembered 75 VR questions etc. My DS could recite at least 20 of his. A tutor with several pupils could certainly gather plenty of info about the exam. And the stinky questions would be the ones that stuck in their head as they got worked up about them so those would be the ones that the tutors could then prepare children for. I think that they ought to be confident in themselves enough to produce a paper of equal difficulty. and if the results implied differently than I'm sure there could be some statistical adjustment - they seem to manage it for plenty of other things.



I know a tutor who tells his students to memorise the paper for him. Each child is allocated a portion of the paper which he/she comes back and lets him know. He uses this info to make sample papers for the next batch.


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 Post subject: Re: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:40 am 
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Quote:
Yoyo123' when are the last 11 plus papers taken? Are questions ever openly discussed on here? Not long till 1 march ...


I think in Bucks it can be as late as July since people moving into the area can apply to sit a late test.


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 Post subject: Re: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:36 pm 
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Location: East Kent
ginx wrote:
Yoyo123' when are the last 11 plus papers taken?

it varies from area to area


Quote:
Are questions ever openly discussed on here?


Yes, quite often members want to know how other people's children felt the test went or something similar and sometimes details are given eg someone might mention the topic for the writing paper, which would then allow late sitters to prepare vocab etc. In the vast majority of cases this is purely enthusiasm, but we are aware that this could give late sitters an advantage so we always whisk anything too specific to the mod's dungeon as soon as possible. ( But even mods have to sleep sometime )


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 Post subject: Re: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:11 pm 
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Location: Warwickshire
Yoyo123, guilty as charged. Not knowing the 11+ was sat again, I posted the type of questions my dd remembered on here (and fortunately, they were whisked away).

I am rather stupid. :( should have thought about people doing the exam in future. Won't do it again. Some dc do seem to have remembered questions. As you say, my dd remembers the hardest question (for her) the most clearly - and it seems she remembers that question very clearly. And a whole section she couldn't do - she can remember the questions even though she didn't know the answers.

Something to discuss another time. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:07 pm 
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On the issue of reusing 11 plus test papers Dr Mary Bousted, general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers (ATL) which represents 160,000 teachers, said:

“Re-using exam papers is very poor practice. For national exams, such as GCSEs and A levels, this would simply not be allowed. We would not expect the regulator Ofqual to say you have to use the paper twice to be fair.

“Whilst it is right to take the individual circumstances of pupils into account, exams must be seen to be fair and all young people should have the opportunity to achieve all they can through their education.”

Robert McCartney, Chairman of the National Grammar Schools Association, said:
“I think it would be better if a test is to be set, that it be a different test to that which has been
available, provided there were clear factors showing that that second test was of equal difficulty.”


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 Post subject: Re: Scope for cheating?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Location: Essex
crashtestdummy wrote:
On the issue of reusing 11 plus test papers Dr Mary Bousted, general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers (ATL) which represents 160,000 teachers, said:

“Re-using exam papers is very poor practice. For national exams, such as GCSEs and A levels, this would simply not be allowed. We would not expect the regulator Ofqual to say you have to use the paper twice to be fair.

“Whilst it is right to take the individual circumstances of pupils into account, exams must be seen to be fair and all young people should have the opportunity to achieve all they can through their education.”

Robert McCartney, Chairman of the National Grammar Schools Association, said:
“I think it would be better if a test is to be set, that it be a different test to that which has been
available, provided there were clear factors showing that that second test was of equal difficulty.”


The CSSE manages to do that every year, although it will be interesting to see (academically, anyway, as our third and last taker is DS2!) what Chelmsford County High School (girls) does re the two sittings with their new CEM papers.

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