David Willets claims

[Looking for help]

I just don't like the idea of a school where they will just take anyone who applies whatever they are like.

How did you manage at primary school then ?

I was not comparing 3 Bs with burgling a house - just comparing the snivelling excuses teenagers and politicians make for their various shortcomings!

I am sure there are many teenagers who have not put in the required effort making excuses for their results, however if there is a grade allowance for those who are not spoon fed to A* then so much the better.

I'm sure there's evidence out there in fact, and I have heard anecdotal evidence that pupils who went to grammar/ indie schools struggled more at university than those who were comprehensively educated, because they actually haven't had to do much in the way of independent learning.

aha here it is http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/201 ... university" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[sherry_d]

Positive discrimination or affirmative action type stuff never work in the long term. Benefits are usually short term. Even if Universities accept lower grades from pupils are the govt going to tell the same message to employers too? At present there are employers that already request a certain number of A level points and I can only see this getting worse if this was introduced. Would these so called top universities still hold the same cachet to employers and world beyond? Would it just not end up with all degrees virtually worthless? They tried opening more universities up to get more people with degrees but that hasnt improved social mobility.

Those with the resources will always win in the end, they are great universities outside our borders where those with the means can go to if we are to devalue our education. Why cant the govt try and work bottom up than top down, start with those comps and deal with the problems why pupils arent achieving their potential. Its not up to the universities to sort the mess of the education system.

[Looking for help]

The company I workfor interviews graduates with a 2 1 or above....if the positive discrimination gives the A Level student with 3 Bs the chance to get to university, and a shot at a 2 1 they will get an interview, the same as anyone else.

I don't think education is devalued as a result/

[Kesteven]

I'm sure there's evidence out there in fact, and I have heard anecdotal evidence that pupils who went to grammar/ indie schools struggled more at university than those who were comprehensively educated, because they actually haven't had to do much in the way of independent learning.

aha here it is http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/201 ... university" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Sutton Trust's 'evidence' has been pretty comprehensively rubbished, since it treats all A Levels as of equal value and all university courses and degrees as of similar academic standing. Yes, it's true that some comprehensive kids with three A Levels in soft subjects can get a 2:1 at South Bank University in Media Studies. And some indie kids with Maths, Physics, Chemistry A Levels might scrape a 2:2 in Astronomy at Durham. But there's no like for like evidence at all to back up the claim that comp kids get better results at degree level than their indie peers. In fact, all the qualitative evidence suggests the reverse.

[Tree]

Magwich2 has written:

I just think it is time that people realised that 18 year olds should stand on their own 2 feet and stop making excuses for themselves.

and

As I have said before most A level subjects are not rocket science and a pupil with this magical "potential" should be able to get themselves down to W H Smith and purchase some good books. (I am aware that weak students would not be able to do this but that is not what we are talking about here).

You have made the whole argument for positive discrimination MW2 it is exactly because the comp kids have had to do these things to get good grades and avoid getting pregnant and managed to get a* in science gcse even though they have been taught physics by chemists or biologists that employers and admissions panels should and do give them extra credit than kids from schools who have achieved the same grades but who have on the balence of probability been given more help and better teaching and a better environment

[Colourful-Rainbow]

Positive discrimination or affirmative action type stuff never work in the long term. Benefits are usually short term. Even if Universities accept lower grades from pupils are the govt going to tell the same message to employers too? At present there are employers that already request a certain number of A level points and I can only see this getting worse if this was introduced. Would these so called top universities still hold the same cachet to employers and world beyond? Would it just not end up with all degrees virtually worthless? They tried opening more universities up to get more people with degrees but that hasnt improved social mobility.

Those with the resources will always win in the end, they are great universities outside our borders where those with the means can go to if we are to devalue our education. Why cant the govt try and work bottom up than top down, start with those comps and deal with the problems why pupils arent achieving their potential. Its not up to the universities to sort the mess of the education system.

I went to two terrible comps. I am not trying to blame the schools necessarily but had we been given the necessary support many of the students would have a better idea of what to do. Although I had my plans from the start they had their own set of 'rules' and did not take into account what was required for uni. I think the problem with many comps is the fact that they do not prepare them very well for what they need to do for year 10 - 11/6th form/uni (or whatever path they choose) besides grades. Everyone knows that grades are important but there are many other things that students should be doing during year 12 and 13. I think it all start from year 9, if you know how the system works then it is fine but if you don't then that's where the trouble lies.

[sterling]

The company I work for interviews graduates with a 2 1 or above....

I'm a little concerned about this. It bothered me when I was applying for jobs in the late '80s with an Oxford degree. I had 4 A grades at A level (all academic ones) and came out with a 2.2. My boyfriend at the time was at UCL and we compared exam papers - the UCL finals included questions similar to our first year exams... I really felt that my 2.2 was the equivalent of a first at a non-Oxbridge university!

However, if companies continue to insist on a 2.1 then it's better to get a first from a non-Russell group university than go to a university with higher standards.

That can't be right, surely?

[magwich2]

I think one of the problems is that perhaps especially in comps no-one is prepared to be judgemental and call a spsde a spade and say that some universities and courses are better than others. Not different but better.