Medicine- still a good career option?

[hermanmunster]

I think there is a fair bit of support across all the professions in the NHS at the moment. The seniors are definitely supporting the Juniors, my supply of BMA "I support the Junior Doctors" were pounced upon by senior docs and nurses of all grades.

[

+1 KCG.

I don't know how a 14 hour shift can be considered as 'reasonable hours', regardless of one's occupation. Would anyone want their children to be taught be teachers who have to teach 14 hours a day? Or get on board of bus driven by a person who has been driving the said bus for 13 hours already?

Actually it isn't reasonable and ghastly if you have a viral lurgee or something. I've done 30 hours in the last 2 days - not an unusual occurrence when out of hours services are covered by "local GPs" (ie not locums)

I;ve worked odd hours for so long that I no longer consider evenings and weekends to be antisocial hours, they are just when I work and sometimes I have weekdays off which I prefer. Easier as I am no longer juggling childcare

[Catseye]

I think this argument of trying to draw a equivalence of doctors V nurses is absurd as is the doctor's V tesco workers.

A better analogy would be a coach driver taking you kith and kin to the South of France and a JD.

It all about what responsibilities one has and where the buck stops.

And I do think the medical profession would support the nursing profession.

But would the nursing profession support hospital porters??

[kenyancowgirl]

My point about working hard at uni was not that doctors should then be entitled to better working conditions but that I felt for them that they work that hard, giving up their normal lives whilst training and then other people expect doctors to work whenever it suits them, so they are not inconvenienced at all. Whilst nobody would disagree the NHS cannot carry on ad infinitum, without some reform, realistic expectations need to be at the forefront of these changes.

At the moment, as I understand it, doctors, and some nurses, can choose to work additional shifts or longer shifts - where this suits them - giving them the option of some family life or additional pay. This also means if they are exhausted etc that they do not choose to take these additional shifts or long shifts (as my doctor friends explain, anyway). Whilst some staff may relish working extra or long shifts for the unsociable payments, I would think that most people would truly want a work/life balance - my understanding is currently they have a choice and Hunts contract takes that away. Requiring doctors to work these hours routinely, yet still hold the ultimate responsibility for patients lives, day in day out, night and day, for these long shifts is wrong and I believe, they are truly not striking about the money. From the unprecedented support they are getting, (check out the NHS Million Twitter feed for examples) a huge number of the public also don't think it is about pay.

Fundamentally, without the doctors there simply is no NHS - what an awful situation we will be in if people train here and then jump ship to private practice or abroad, the minute they are qualified. However, this could be a deliberate ruse...make doctors walk away so the NHS becomes even more unprofitable and ripe for privatisation!! Incidentally I think that the public would also support nurses if they had a contract imposed on them in this way - whilst the government seem to have very little respect for those working in the NHS, support amongst the public seems to be at an all time high!

[Yamin151]

where would the nhs be without the porters? Where would it be without the nurses?

This whole strike has been built around patient safety re the hours. It seems to me that there is a bit of a double standard here. It's ok to work the extra hours for the extra pay, clearly patient safety not a worry there, but as soon as someone tries to take away the money, suddenly the patients safety is paramount.

At the level my husband nurses, he is an autonomous practitioner and the buck stops as much with him as with the junior doctors. He is required to make quick and life and death decisions, lead a Resus team (which most JDs don't) and deal on a daily basis with critically ill patients. The trouble is people tend to see "doctors" (life and death, only ones responsible, making all the tough decisions) vs "nurses" (poor overworked handmaidens, but still only responsible for carrying out some docs instructions and caring physically and holistically if possible for poorly patients. The reality is that more and more nurses are becoming practitioners and hold responsibility equal to junior docs (and yes, the indemnity insurance is huge cf before).
But you're right, this is not an opportunity to pitch nurses of any skill level against JDs, but it is about not making anybody within the medical profession a god (anyone know that joke? Maybe not for here, lol) and thinking that they should get different treatment 'simply' because they are a doctor. I think that doctors do a fantastic job and dserve good pay, good working conditions and bags of respect, in general. the times, however, are changing. Tough decisions about the NHS have to be made.

[PurpleDuck]

I've done 30 hours in the last 2 days - not an unusual occurrence when out of hours services are covered by "local GPs" (ie not locums)

I;ve worked odd hours for so long that I no longer consider evenings and weekends to be antisocial hours, they are just when I work and sometimes I have weekdays off which I prefer. Easier as I am no longer juggling childcare

Gosh, I really don't know how you manage that - I am a big wimp by comparison (good job I didn't chose medicine as a career). The only way I could work through these sort of hours is if it's something that doesn't require much mental input. I remember spending stupidly long hours in my garden (still planting the last few bulbs at 10.30 pm because I wanted to finish off a particular section), or when I was decorating my flat years ago. When it comes to something that requires analytical thinking and coherence, I can manage 10-11 hours and then my brain simply switches off. When I had to get something done before a tight deadline, I would work through 9 hours, get home, sort out the kids and all, and then pick up again late in the evening, finishing well past midnight, but at least I did have a few hours break from the work I was doing. This is not something I would recommend to anyone, though, as in a long run it's our health that suffers.

[tiffinboys]

Gosh, no one is trying to pitch doctors vs nurses. Nurses and other healthcare staff do get overtime as well when working unsocial hours and regular breaks as well in between shifts. And yes, some nurses are at Consultant level as and some midwives are at consultant level too. So don't know why some would want to argue against Junior doctors getting compensated for working on weekends and other unsocial hours.

The point about patient safety is simply that the longer shifts under new contract are unsafe, whether paid or unpaid. Also note that even now Doctors work on weekends for emergency and ward cover. Opening hospitals for elective work is simply shifting work (clinics and elective surgery) to weekends from weekdays. If same doctors are put on weekend, then some one has to come off from week day Wards, clinics or theatre, putting patients there at risk by thin staffing. Already staffing levels at JD level are so thin that often JDs are unable to handover shifts on time. To open hospitals on weekends for elective clinics and surgery, would require massive investment in staffing and facilities. Hope Jeremy Hunt gets to understand this and stop his ego from ruining NHS.

7 days NHS. Well, we already have hospitals opening 7 days. How about opening GP surgeries for 7 days?

[Tolstoy]

I think as a society many of us work too many hours not just doctors, and I agree Purpleduck it is wrong. Whilst I do think weekends are now very much part of the working week and to pay extra for working them particularly in a job where it is obvious you will be needed, nursing, medicine p, sadly retail etc.... is a bit of a nonsense, I do think the 48 hour week should be manditory, no opt outs unless you are running your own business and you chose to ( lets face it who could police that).

It seems to me the more advanced we get as a society the less free time and enjoyment we allow ourselves. What a load of nonsense, and ultimately it is the children who suffer from absent parenting. Also our health, maybe if we weren't stressed to the eyeballs from overwork our health would be better and doctors, nurses et al would not be under so much pressure to deal with us all. Just a thought

[Yamin151]

Gosh, no one is trying to pitch doctors vs nurses. Nurses and other healthcare staff do get overtime as well when working unsocial hours and regular breaks as well in between shifts. And yes, some nurses are at Consultant level as and some midwives are at consultant level too. So don't know why some would want to argue against Junior doctors getting compensated for working on weekends and other unsocial hours.

Yes, but once they change the doctors pay to adjust the overtime for unsocial hours, the same will happen with nurses. Its not that my dh wants to have less pay, of course not, but the claim is that its all about safety, not pay! And they are getting a pay rise and then will still get unsocial hours. SOmething has to shift to keep the NHS going.

The point about patient safety is simply that the longer shifts under new contract are unsafe, whether paid or unpaid. Also note that even now Doctors work on weekends for emergency and ward cover. Opening hospitals for elective work is simply shifting work (clinics and elective surgery) to weekends from weekdays. If same doctors are put on weekend, then some one has to come off from week day Wards, clinics or theatre, putting patients there at risk by thin staffing. Already staffing levels at JD level are so thin that often JDs are unable to handover shifts on time. To open hospitals on weekends for elective clinics and surgery, would require massive investment in staffing and facilities. Hope Jeremy Hunt gets to understand this and stop his ego from ruining NHS.

Totally agree that staffing levels must be correct and that includes all other services working to cover elective surgery at weekends too. But the size of the establishment is surely a different argument from the level of pay? And there are not 'longer shifts' under the contract necessarily, its just that they have removed the incentives for trusts NOT to instigate them. A 14 hour shift with proper breaks is possible, preferable for some, with proper breaks yes! And if docs are already working long hours under the current contract, how is this different in the new one?

But if a JD chooses to work an overtime shift for the extra money it gives them (understand totally) then they clearly don't consider it unsafe or surely they wouldn't do it voluntarily? But suddenly its become a huge issue, even though they are doing it voluntarily for money. When someone makes it necessary and not for lots more money (although Sat evening, night and all day sunday are all paid extra under new contract) - suddenly its all about patient safety!

7 days NHS. Well, we already have hospitals opening 7 days. How about opening GP surgeries for 7 days?

I agree! Open GPs surgeries for 7 days. Might mean less people pitch up to A& E because they can't see their GP for 2 weeks.

[silverysea]

We can't keep up in other areas either, like labs to do the tests required to diagnose these patients. And they already have out-of-hours services in many cases. People are hard to recruit, train and retain to keep the existing service running and we are expected to do 20% more every year with the same resources. It's impossible and demoralising already, and then we are told we have to work weekends and nights as well? There's a limit. The staff turnover is accelerating.

Cross posted but there you are.

[Yamin151]

I think as a society many of us work too many hours not just doctors, and I agree Purpleduck it is wrong. Whilst I do think weekends are now very much part of the working week and to pay extra for working them particularly in a job where it is obvious you will be needed, nursing, medicine p, sadly retail etc.... is a bit of a nonsense, I do think the 48 hour week should be manditory, no opt outs unless you are running your own business and you chose to ( lets face it who could police that).

It seems to me the more advanced we get as a society the less free time and enjoyment we allow ourselves. What a load of nonsense, and ultimately it is the children who suffer from absent parenting. Also our health, maybe if we weren't stressed to the eyeballs from overwork our health would be better and doctors, nurses et al would not be under so much pressure to deal with us all. Just a thought

+1 Tolstoy, I would agree with you on this.