Warwickshire - oversubscription or acaedemic appeal - AGS
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Rose petal
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 9:37 am
Warwickshire - oversubscription or acaedemic appeal - AGS
Hi There,
I am just after a bit of advice as to how the appeals processes work in cases like mine.
General situation in Warwickshire
Warwickshire have grammar schools in two areas South and East. Alcester GS (the only grammar school we applied to) is part of the South, where there are also two other grammar schools. The automatic qualifying score at the three South GS was as follows (waiting list scores in brackets):-
King Edward -337 (323)
Stratford GS - 324 (314)
Alcester GS - 329 (321)
In the East there are three GS with automatic qualifying scores as follows:
Lawrence Sheriff - 302 (295)
Rugby HS - 302 (293)
Ashlawn Selective - 296 (289).
All of the above are out of a possible 504 and South and East candiates all took the same 11+ exam and to be considered for a place you need to live in the "priority circle/area".
The PAN for Alcester GS is 90 and 90 places have been offered.
A few brief facts about our situation.
- We live in the South "priority circle", but do not live in the East Priority area.
- DD scored enough to qualify for the waiting list at Alcester.
- Per the Warwickshire Admission booklet - "only children who have scored above the automatic standard or have been considered by a committee of reference will be added to the waiting list".
- I am not sure if she has been considered by a committee of reference, I do know however that her Head Teacher was asked to provide comments and her rankings in Maths and English within the school. The rankings were v. good and comments were v. positive.
My questions are these.
Do I need to prove that DD is of the correct academic ability as the fact that she is on the waiting list for my chosen school plus the fact that she has scored above the automatic qualifying in the East would seem to do this for me?
If I don't need to prove academic ability at the appeal what do I need to prove - I assume it would become an allocation appeal in that case - or would it be both?
Does anyone know what the chances tend to be of getting in at appeal in Warwickshire? i.e. am I wasting my time?
Does anyone also know what the waiting list movements have been like in previous years?
Thank you.
Rose Petal
I am just after a bit of advice as to how the appeals processes work in cases like mine.
General situation in Warwickshire
Warwickshire have grammar schools in two areas South and East. Alcester GS (the only grammar school we applied to) is part of the South, where there are also two other grammar schools. The automatic qualifying score at the three South GS was as follows (waiting list scores in brackets):-
King Edward -337 (323)
Stratford GS - 324 (314)
Alcester GS - 329 (321)
In the East there are three GS with automatic qualifying scores as follows:
Lawrence Sheriff - 302 (295)
Rugby HS - 302 (293)
Ashlawn Selective - 296 (289).
All of the above are out of a possible 504 and South and East candiates all took the same 11+ exam and to be considered for a place you need to live in the "priority circle/area".
The PAN for Alcester GS is 90 and 90 places have been offered.
A few brief facts about our situation.
- We live in the South "priority circle", but do not live in the East Priority area.
- DD scored enough to qualify for the waiting list at Alcester.
- Per the Warwickshire Admission booklet - "only children who have scored above the automatic standard or have been considered by a committee of reference will be added to the waiting list".
- I am not sure if she has been considered by a committee of reference, I do know however that her Head Teacher was asked to provide comments and her rankings in Maths and English within the school. The rankings were v. good and comments were v. positive.
My questions are these. Do I need to prove that DD is of the correct academic ability as the fact that she is on the waiting list for my chosen school plus the fact that she has scored above the automatic qualifying in the East would seem to do this for me?
If I don't need to prove academic ability at the appeal what do I need to prove - I assume it would become an allocation appeal in that case - or would it be both?
Does anyone know what the chances tend to be of getting in at appeal in Warwickshire? i.e. am I wasting my time?
Does anyone also know what the waiting list movements have been like in previous years?
Thank you.
Rose Petal
Hi there Rose Petal.
Firstly, you have given plenty of detail which is super and will help our experts on this section to understand the Warwickshire system.
Secondly, as you already know, I'm afraid that I have no experience of appeals in Warwickshire so I'm afraid I cannot be much help to you.
Hang in there and I'm sure that help will be along shortly. I'll have a quick check to see whether there are any other questions I could be asking you to help our appeals mods further... x
Firstly, you have given plenty of detail which is super and will help our experts on this section to understand the Warwickshire system.
Secondly, as you already know, I'm afraid that I have no experience of appeals in Warwickshire so I'm afraid I cannot be much help to you.
Hang in there and I'm sure that help will be along shortly. I'll have a quick check to see whether there are any other questions I could be asking you to help our appeals mods further... x
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Hi Rose Petal
Thank you from me also for such an informative post. As your daughter is on the waiting list she is deemed qualified, and therefore your appeal is an over-subscription appeal. The Appeal Q&As (Section C) will help you to understand that process.
From your comment about the Head having been asked to provide academic evidence, it sounds to me as though the "committee of reference" is a "review process" similar to that conducted in Kent. I may be wrong - perhaps KenR will know more because he is closer to your neck of the woods.
Sally-Anne
Thank you from me also for such an informative post. As your daughter is on the waiting list she is deemed qualified, and therefore your appeal is an over-subscription appeal. The Appeal Q&As (Section C) will help you to understand that process.
From your comment about the Head having been asked to provide academic evidence, it sounds to me as though the "committee of reference" is a "review process" similar to that conducted in Kent. I may be wrong - perhaps KenR will know more because he is closer to your neck of the woods.
Sally-Anne
Hi Rose Petal
You don't say what mark your DD scóred, where she is on the waiting list and if you live in Warks or Worcs. Did you speak or write to Warwickshire admissions for this information? If not you should do it right away by emial if necessary quoting y ou candidate number.
It's also worthwhile asking what the movement was like last year on the waiting list to give you a chance.
I don't have a great deal of experience about Warwickshire Appeals (I was involved in 1 case a few years ago) but I suspect it will be like B/Ham and you will have to demonstrate particular circumstances that put you child at a disadvantage. Normally something like a death in the family or documented illness, otherwise authorities like Warwickshire tend to play it very straight based on academic performance in the exam via the waiting list.
Is there a reason why you didn't apply to Shottery? The pass mark for this was quite a bit lower and you might have got through. If however the reason you didn't apply to Shottery was becasue you live in Worcs and only had 3 choices then you have a potential case. We had 1 parent 2 years ago that managed to persuade Worcs admissions to change the CAF perference for a KE Grammar that he daughter would have passed for and she got in eventually as a late admission. Please let us know if this is the case.
However first you have to find her score and see if she would have got in and if you would want your duaghter to go to Shottery.
Hope this helps
I can provide more details on the approach if this is the case. You should search the Warwickshire LEA web site and find out the stats for successful Appeal to Alcester Grammar - this will give you an idea if it'w worthwhile. I suspect not but do the research. You can even ask the LEA.
Rose Petal, just spotted that you live in Worcs ( we are also in Worcs in Wythall). If the reason you didn't put Shottery down was because of a lack of choice (in Worcs we only have 3 choices) then you could go back to Worcs LEA and complain. A large number of Worcs parents have complained to Worcs LEA about how the restriction of 3 choices only on the CAF puts Worcs parents on the B/Ham and Warks border at a severe disadvantage. I have personally written to Worcs LEA on a number of occasions but the Worcs admisssions forum just ignore it and keep to 3 choices. All these people live in Worcester itself and don't care. I've also written to the county councillor who is sympathetic (wythall ratepayer now rather than Tory)
If you daughter would have passed for Shottery and you want to get in then I would speak to Worcs LEA and request a Late Admissions submission. They have done this before and we have been successful
Hope this helps
You don't say what mark your DD scóred, where she is on the waiting list and if you live in Warks or Worcs. Did you speak or write to Warwickshire admissions for this information? If not you should do it right away by emial if necessary quoting y ou candidate number.
It's also worthwhile asking what the movement was like last year on the waiting list to give you a chance.
I don't have a great deal of experience about Warwickshire Appeals (I was involved in 1 case a few years ago) but I suspect it will be like B/Ham and you will have to demonstrate particular circumstances that put you child at a disadvantage. Normally something like a death in the family or documented illness, otherwise authorities like Warwickshire tend to play it very straight based on academic performance in the exam via the waiting list.
Is there a reason why you didn't apply to Shottery? The pass mark for this was quite a bit lower and you might have got through. If however the reason you didn't apply to Shottery was becasue you live in Worcs and only had 3 choices then you have a potential case. We had 1 parent 2 years ago that managed to persuade Worcs admissions to change the CAF perference for a KE Grammar that he daughter would have passed for and she got in eventually as a late admission. Please let us know if this is the case.
However first you have to find her score and see if she would have got in and if you would want your duaghter to go to Shottery.
Hope this helps
I can provide more details on the approach if this is the case. You should search the Warwickshire LEA web site and find out the stats for successful Appeal to Alcester Grammar - this will give you an idea if it'w worthwhile. I suspect not but do the research. You can even ask the LEA.
Rose Petal, just spotted that you live in Worcs ( we are also in Worcs in Wythall). If the reason you didn't put Shottery down was because of a lack of choice (in Worcs we only have 3 choices) then you could go back to Worcs LEA and complain. A large number of Worcs parents have complained to Worcs LEA about how the restriction of 3 choices only on the CAF puts Worcs parents on the B/Ham and Warks border at a severe disadvantage. I have personally written to Worcs LEA on a number of occasions but the Worcs admisssions forum just ignore it and keep to 3 choices. All these people live in Worcester itself and don't care. I've also written to the county councillor who is sympathetic (wythall ratepayer now rather than Tory)
If you daughter would have passed for Shottery and you want to get in then I would speak to Worcs LEA and request a Late Admissions submission. They have done this before and we have been successful
Hope this helps
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Rose petal
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 9:37 am
Thank you for all the replies.
In answer to KenR's questions I do live in Worcestershire but within the priority circle of the South GSs.
I didn't put Stratford Girls (Shottery) on the CAF for two reasons:
1. distance from us and the logistical problems that would cause each day and
2. in the past the qualifying score was lower at Alcester and as Alcester was 1st choice I came to the conclusion that to put Stratford Girls on the form was a waste of one of the three preferences.
DDs score was in the lower 320s and under the 324 for Stratford Girls. Therefore she is close to the bottom of the Alcester waiting list but I assume would have been in the top bit of the Stratford Girls waiting list.
I am going to have to rethink the transport to Stratford Girls as a place there might come our way (as long as we can put her name on the waiting list) before one at AGS . The notes that came with the test results say that if the child has a score that qualifies them for a school's waiting list they can be added to that school's list. Does that mean she could go onto the waiting list for Stratford Girls now at the appropriate place on the list even though the school was not on the CAF? That is how it reads to me.
In answer to KenR's questions I do live in Worcestershire but within the priority circle of the South GSs.
I didn't put Stratford Girls (Shottery) on the CAF for two reasons:
1. distance from us and the logistical problems that would cause each day and
2. in the past the qualifying score was lower at Alcester and as Alcester was 1st choice I came to the conclusion that to put Stratford Girls on the form was a waste of one of the three preferences.
DDs score was in the lower 320s and under the 324 for Stratford Girls. Therefore she is close to the bottom of the Alcester waiting list but I assume would have been in the top bit of the Stratford Girls waiting list.
I am going to have to rethink the transport to Stratford Girls as a place there might come our way (as long as we can put her name on the waiting list) before one at AGS . The notes that came with the test results say that if the child has a score that qualifies them for a school's waiting list they can be added to that school's list. Does that mean she could go onto the waiting list for Stratford Girls now at the appropriate place on the list even though the school was not on the CAF? That is how it reads to me.
Hi Rose Petal
You can only go on the Stafford Girls GS Waiting list if you can persuade Worcs to change your CAF preferences but there's no point doing this unless you have a realistic chance of getting into Stratford Girls Grammar from the waiting list.
You need to find out where you daughter would be on the waiting list of she had put Shottery down and would she have a relastic chance of getting in, otherwise there's no point going through the process of trying to persuade Worcs to accept a late admission. (They will only do this if there is a realistic chance and only then with a fight)
If you are in this situation I might be able to provide some evidence to help you with Worcs LEA but you need to check the facts first.
You can only go on the Stafford Girls GS Waiting list if you can persuade Worcs to change your CAF preferences but there's no point doing this unless you have a realistic chance of getting into Stratford Girls Grammar from the waiting list.
You need to find out where you daughter would be on the waiting list of she had put Shottery down and would she have a relastic chance of getting in, otherwise there's no point going through the process of trying to persuade Worcs to accept a late admission. (They will only do this if there is a realistic chance and only then with a fight)
If you are in this situation I might be able to provide some evidence to help you with Worcs LEA but you need to check the facts first.
That is how it works within Eastern Warwickshire. Child I knew - missed boys school score but had score that would have entitled him to an Ashlawn selective place but it wasn't on the CAF so school not awarded - after offer day he could have gone straight to the top of the waiting list for Ashlawn.Rose petal wrote:The notes that came with the test results say that if the child has a score that qualifies them for a school's waiting list they can be added to that school's list. Does that mean she could go onto the waiting list for Stratford Girls now at the appropriate place on the list even though the school was not on the CAF? That is how it reads to me.
I am not sure if it is the same as you applied on the Worcs CAF but it shouldn't make a difference. Give both Worcs and Warwickshire a phone call to ask after the weekend to find out, they should be able to give you the current waiting list position too - that can vary as more request to be put on a waiting list!
Hope it goes well
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Rose petal
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 9:37 am
An update on my situation - any advice gladly received.
I have a chance to think about this for a bit longer and wonder if I should as well as doing the over subscripiton appeal also do an academic appeal.
Assuming that 100 is the standardised score in each of the three papers (VR, Maths and NVR) in Warwickshire, It does appear that DD scored well enough in the Math and VR papers for entry to AGS but it was the NVR where her standardised score fell down. This really was not what I would have predicted the outcome in NVR to be, based on how she performed when we practiced at home. But how can I prove that the NVR score received is not representive of her general ability in this area. Obviously I can't refer to a predicted SATs score like I can if it were maths that were a problem.
I have a letter from DDs current school which amongst other things gives predicted SATs grades (5A / 5B) and a recommendation that she would fit in with grammar school life.
Do you think that spelling age / reading age tests woud be useful evidence in this situation or are SATs predictions good enough?
As she is close to the bottom of the waiting list for Alcester GS I really am not holding my breath that a place will be offered in that way. We are not going to puruse the option of going onto the Shottery waiting list as the logistics every day would be just too much, even though she would be further up it.
As far as the over-subscription appeal is concerned I know I need to be appealing for the particular school in question and not just a grammar school education or not to go to the allocated school. But would an argument of "This is our closest grammar school, we live in the catchment, DD has scored enough academically to be on the waiting list and to get to any other GS from where we live would be a nightmare" good enough. Do I for example need to say or prove why the transport elsewhere would be a nightmare (obviously what I consider a nightmare and not appropriate for an 11year old someone else may consider reasonable).
AGS does have a specialism is science and currently DD does say she likes science best of all her lessons can we put that in an appeal. Allocated school has humanities (English/Drama) and music specialisms, so very different.
Does anyone know in the past how many appeals have been successful at AGS?
Thank you all again.
Rose petal.
I have a chance to think about this for a bit longer and wonder if I should as well as doing the over subscripiton appeal also do an academic appeal.
Assuming that 100 is the standardised score in each of the three papers (VR, Maths and NVR) in Warwickshire, It does appear that DD scored well enough in the Math and VR papers for entry to AGS but it was the NVR where her standardised score fell down. This really was not what I would have predicted the outcome in NVR to be, based on how she performed when we practiced at home. But how can I prove that the NVR score received is not representive of her general ability in this area. Obviously I can't refer to a predicted SATs score like I can if it were maths that were a problem.
I have a letter from DDs current school which amongst other things gives predicted SATs grades (5A / 5B) and a recommendation that she would fit in with grammar school life.
Do you think that spelling age / reading age tests woud be useful evidence in this situation or are SATs predictions good enough?
As she is close to the bottom of the waiting list for Alcester GS I really am not holding my breath that a place will be offered in that way. We are not going to puruse the option of going onto the Shottery waiting list as the logistics every day would be just too much, even though she would be further up it.
As far as the over-subscription appeal is concerned I know I need to be appealing for the particular school in question and not just a grammar school education or not to go to the allocated school. But would an argument of "This is our closest grammar school, we live in the catchment, DD has scored enough academically to be on the waiting list and to get to any other GS from where we live would be a nightmare" good enough. Do I for example need to say or prove why the transport elsewhere would be a nightmare (obviously what I consider a nightmare and not appropriate for an 11year old someone else may consider reasonable).
AGS does have a specialism is science and currently DD does say she likes science best of all her lessons can we put that in an appeal. Allocated school has humanities (English/Drama) and music specialisms, so very different.
Does anyone know in the past how many appeals have been successful at AGS?
Thank you all again.
Rose petal.
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Rose petal
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 9:37 am
Does anyone know where I can get figures of children in each year currently at AGS, is it on teachernet somewhere? I want to work out how many were admitted over the PAN for the last few years. I have done various google searches on this but so far with no luck.
Also anyone got any advice regarding my last post.
Thank you
Rose petal
Also anyone got any advice regarding my last post.
Thank you
Rose petal
I don't think you'll find the figures published. You should get them with the case papers a week or so before the hearing, but if you'd rather not wait you could write and ask the school. If they won't co-operate, try quoting the Freedom of Information Act!Does anyone know where I can get figures of children in each year currently at AGS, is it on teachernet somewhere?
Etienne
