CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

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Booklady
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 10:39 pm

CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by Booklady »

Is there any statistically competent person on here (or known) who could do a proper comparison between the CATs scores shown here on page 15-16
http://www.testingforschools.com/help/CAT3-guidance.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and the 11+ curve from here

http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/media/2651966 ... y-test.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As we had no end of Y5 SAT scores (independent school) I think the review body have inappropriately compared CAT scores directly with the 11+ score. I am pretty sure this interpreted use of cats instead of sats is the issue we have here.

Can any stats whizz-brains help me? Nice little challenge for you!! :) :lol: :roll:
Guest55
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Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:21 pm

Re: CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by Guest55 »

I teach Stats A level - what are you wanting to compare? I'm unsure what you are asking ....
Booklady
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 10:39 pm

Re: CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by Booklady »

Guest55 wrote:I teach Stats A level - what are you wanting to compare? I'm unsure what you are asking ....
To be honest I am not absolutely sure!!

My dd's CATs scores were 117 (quant), 119 verbal), 131 (NVR) and 122 (mean). She had no end of Y5 SAT scores (independent school) but predicted Y6 Reading 5c/6c, Maths 5a, Writing 5c.
They did not doubt she could get level 5's, but said academic results in school consistent with exam score. Unsuccessful review.

It seems to us they are looking for much higher CAT scores - but on what basis? How do these %iles compare to the 11+ - which is supposed to select the top 30% in the county? The link to the CATS booklet shows these CAT scores are top15% or so at their lowest!!

I've gotta go out now - and now sure if what I am saying makes sense? Does it?

Thanks
Guest55
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Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:21 pm

Re: CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by Guest55 »

The problem is that CATS are standardised against a national cohort.

The Bucks test is standardised against the children that sit it - ie a more able group of children. The lowest ability don't take it and able children 'with a chance of qualifying' from partner schools do.
Booklady
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 10:39 pm

Re: CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by Booklady »

Guest55 wrote:The problem is that CATS are standardised against a national cohort.

The Bucks test is standardised against the children that sit it - ie a more able group of children. The lowest ability don't take it and able children 'with a chance of qualifying' from partner schools do.

So is there any logical way at all to prove / throw doubt on these likely comparisons? Why should kids be expected to be in top 4-5% of country standardised CATs to be good enough for top 30% in Bucks - that just seems illogical and wrong - and means kids who have CATs but not SATs seem to get skewed against.
Or am I looking at it wrong?!? :roll: :roll:
southbucks3
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:59 am

Re: CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by southbucks3 »

Tbh, the sats are given very low significance according to the LA rep and head teachers from last year's appeal panels, I suspect cats are compared with local statistics of those in grammar school, or maybe even against those that have also entered the review process at the same time. Our state primary school does place great significance to the correlation of cats scores above 125 and 11+ success, with a desired >130 in vr. They seem to be fairly accurate in their predictions.
Unfortunately the bar for success does seem to be set incredibly high in recent years, with upper schools receiving many children who have high level 5 or even level 6 sats and cats above 120.
Whether this is reflected in the natural ability of those who have accessed the grammars is another debate entirely.
Booklady
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 10:39 pm

Re: CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by Booklady »

southbucks3 wrote:Tbh, the sats are given very low significance according to the LA rep and head teachers from last year's appeal panels, I suspect cats are compared with local statistics of those in grammar school, or maybe even against those that have also entered the review process at the same time. Our state primary school does place great significance to the correlation of cats scores above 125 and 11+ success, with a desired >130 in vr. They seem to be fairly accurate in their predictions.
Unfortunately the bar for success does seem to be set incredibly high in recent years, with upper schools receiving many children who have high level 5 or even level 6 sats and cats above 120.
Whether this is reflected in the natural ability of those who have accessed the grammars is another debate entirely.
What proportion of schools do CATs though? Seems like a lot of those who got through on review this time didn't have anything other that Y5 SATs, predicted Y6 SATs, and the HT report. How can that be objectively assessed against CAT scores? And why would they look for >130 when this is top 2-3% of the population! :roll:
southbucks3
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:59 am

Re: CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by southbucks3 »

"They" have just realised over the years that those figures represent the highest likelihood of 11+ success in my sons school,only one of my boys achieved >130 in vr, he sat the old style test and did get a v high score, the one who didn't pass got 118 in be 125 over all, the youngest got 119, 128 over all, his cats scores pretty much replicated his 11+ scores.

In order of importance the LA rep and gs head teacher rated as such:
Closeness to 121 on test
Cat scores or other independent nationally recognised intelligence tests.
Level 5 sats.

Head teacher predictions are only good if they assessed a near correct number of passes at the predicted rate, e.g. 5/7 at 2:1
As for the ht speel, this can be subjective, one panel dismissed it as "why should we take their word for his ability"

When asked by a parent, what happens about children with no cats, he suggested some parents paid for independent educational psych reports, the reply to this was the obvious barrier....the prohibitive expense of producing such a report.

Bottom line is, evidence of very high ability throughout ks 2. And the ks 1 level 3 seems to be the ticket if there is no extenuating. Particularly evidence that shows high ability in the weakest area of the test.
Son number two had a pretty even spread of near miss on the test, which thankfully bolstered our version of events regarding mitigating circumstances.

Good luck, sorry it is very stressy.
Booklady
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 10:39 pm

Re: CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by Booklady »

I guess my point is how can it possibly be FCO when they have different data from different schools, some have no other data than SATs!

Anyway - points I shall be asking questions on ..... :roll:
Dollydripmat
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:19 pm

Re: CATs v SATS v11+ score - Bucks

Post by Dollydripmat »

Book lady, I'm not sure if it helps but we didn't have any cat scores or extenuating circumstances other than a very late Aug child and we were successful at review. I'm not sure if this year cats have been as important as previous years. Dollyx
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