have we got caught by the system!!
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have we got caught by the system!!
My son was borderline to pass the test and more likely to fail was the advice received from school and tutor. The scholl advised he was not a ' headteacher appeal' candidate. Thus we put a church school as first choice as he met all criteria and our much preferred grammer as second as the church school is over-subscribed.
we had assumed that if he passed the test then he would be given his first grammer choice but this is not the case and we now need to write to go on the waiting list and I assume lodge an appeal.
However i have a number of questions:
* If we appeal does that mean we need to turn down the church school place
* If we do have to turn it down and we fail on appeal what happens?
* Is the appeal process two stage, i.e. appeal for a place at the grammer of choice on your form and if unsuccessful appeal again for a place at any grammer
* Is there any caselaw that would allow judicial review if we lose out on both a grammer place and the church school place once the process is exhausted?
* If we appeal do we have to live with whatever comes out the otherside even if it the local comp!
Sorry this is a long post but we were advised third party that this ordering of schools was best in Kent and that the appeal process would ensure the right outcome but a conversation since the place was awarded suggests different. It seems such an opaque process dispite the KCC publication
We are not the only parents to have fallen into this conundrum I understand
we had assumed that if he passed the test then he would be given his first grammer choice but this is not the case and we now need to write to go on the waiting list and I assume lodge an appeal.
However i have a number of questions:
* If we appeal does that mean we need to turn down the church school place
* If we do have to turn it down and we fail on appeal what happens?
* Is the appeal process two stage, i.e. appeal for a place at the grammer of choice on your form and if unsuccessful appeal again for a place at any grammer
* Is there any caselaw that would allow judicial review if we lose out on both a grammer place and the church school place once the process is exhausted?
* If we appeal do we have to live with whatever comes out the otherside even if it the local comp!
Sorry this is a long post but we were advised third party that this ordering of schools was best in Kent and that the appeal process would ensure the right outcome but a conversation since the place was awarded suggests different. It seems such an opaque process dispite the KCC publication
We are not the only parents to have fallen into this conundrum I understand
My understanding is that you accept the offer you have been made and then go ahead with your appeal. If your appeal is sucessful and are offered another place then you can advise the original one you no longer want the place.
I am sorry I can not advise on your other queries but wish well and keep my fingers crossed you get the outcome you want
I am sorry I can not advise on your other queries but wish well and keep my fingers crossed you get the outcome you want
Re: have we got caught by the system!!
Yes, do both. The docs should have made it clear that it is the other way round. In Gloucestershire one is advised to put the grammar first as if 11+ is failed, the first non-grammar choice becomes the new First choice. Until recently, some schools would only consider you if you put them as first choice, but this is no longer allowed.frodo wrote:we had assumed that if he passed the test then he would be given his first grammer choice but this is not the case and we now need to write to go on the waiting list and I assume lodge an appeal.
NOOOO. Accept it and then appeal.* If we appeal does that mean we need to turn down the church school place
* Is the appeal process two stage, i.e. appeal for a place at the grammer of choice on your form and if unsuccessful appeal again for a place at any grammer
I'm not sure about this one. As the appeals are all heard around the same time, you couldn't easily do this - and if you did, you'd have less chance at the 2nd appeals, as spaces would be even tighter.
You'll still have the church school place. But you can only take this to the ombudsman if the appeal process is faulty, rather than disliking the result of it. You'd also be on sticky grounds I imagine, as your wishes as expressed on your preference form have been fulfilled. But anyway, appeals panels are quite sympathetic, and you may strike lucky.* Is there any caselaw that would allow judicial review if we lose out on both a grammer place and the church school place once the process is exhausted?
Sorry this is a long post but we were advised third party that this ordering of schools was best in Kent and that the appeal process would ensure the right outcome but a conversation since the place was awarded suggests different. It seems such an opaque process dispite the KCC publication
Your were certainly ill advised there. I hope it wasn't the school or any council officials who said it, otherwise you'd have to make sure that was brought up at appeal (and complain separately). If it was Private Advice - i.e. - the tutor - sue the hind legs off them - you know how much you paid them!!!!
Capers
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Kent99
Hello Frodo
Sorry to hear about your predicament. I'm surprised though that you found the KCC admissions guide unclear. In the section on completing the Kent CAF it states:
[quote]On that form we ask you to name up to three schools you would like your child to go to.
We ask you to rank these schools in the order you most prefer.[/quote]
It then goes on to say:
[quote]If only one of the schools you have asked for could offer your child a place, that is the school place we will
offer you.
If more than one of the schools you have asked for could offer your child a place, we will offer you
whichever one of these you ranked highest on your Common Application Form. This is the only time your
rank order will be used to decide which place to offer you.[/quote]
The booklet even goes on to give various worked examples.
Did you not receive a copy of this booklet? If not you should certainly let Kent CC know.
Sorry to hear about your predicament. I'm surprised though that you found the KCC admissions guide unclear. In the section on completing the Kent CAF it states:
[quote]On that form we ask you to name up to three schools you would like your child to go to.
We ask you to rank these schools in the order you most prefer.[/quote]
It then goes on to say:
[quote]If only one of the schools you have asked for could offer your child a place, that is the school place we will
offer you.
If more than one of the schools you have asked for could offer your child a place, we will offer you
whichever one of these you ranked highest on your Common Application Form. This is the only time your
rank order will be used to decide which place to offer you.[/quote]
The booklet even goes on to give various worked examples.
Did you not receive a copy of this booklet? If not you should certainly let Kent CC know.
Kent 99 and belinda
I agree that the striaght forward advice in the booklet would lead you to that conclusion, but the key point is able to offer a place. The Church school is oversubscribed with high qualifying pupils and the alternative non grammer comp ids not one we would choose. The worked up solutions struck me as KCC's attempt to cover all bases in the event of an unhappy parent to be frank!
I agree we hedged our bets but is it simplistic to assume that a child passing the test should have a place at the level of school one takes the test to attend?
We have appealled and have also asked to be placed on the waiting list, the advice in the Q&A is most useful and i am formulating a number of FOI requests on current and past allocations, whether I send these or not I am debating as the school is foundation and I'm not sure if this would be a prejudicial move.
At the end of the day we are irritated at ourselves as much as the system that we find ourselves in this situation but I hope it all works out.
I agree that the striaght forward advice in the booklet would lead you to that conclusion, but the key point is able to offer a place. The Church school is oversubscribed with high qualifying pupils and the alternative non grammer comp ids not one we would choose. The worked up solutions struck me as KCC's attempt to cover all bases in the event of an unhappy parent to be frank!
I agree we hedged our bets but is it simplistic to assume that a child passing the test should have a place at the level of school one takes the test to attend?
We have appealled and have also asked to be placed on the waiting list, the advice in the Q&A is most useful and i am formulating a number of FOI requests on current and past allocations, whether I send these or not I am debating as the school is foundation and I'm not sure if this would be a prejudicial move.
At the end of the day we are irritated at ourselves as much as the system that we find ourselves in this situation but I hope it all works out.
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Kent99
Hello Frodo
As Belinda tried to explain it would have made absolutely no difference to your chances of a place at the church school if you had listed the grammar first. It doesn't matter how oversubscibed they are, they do not even know that you put them first. They consider every application equally. You didn't hedge your bets, therefore, you just got it wrong. Kent CC had no way of knowing that you would have preferred the grammar place, and weren't just using that as a fall-back. You told them via the CAF that, given a choice between that and the church school, you would prefer the church school.
Sorry if that sounds confrontational; it's not meant to be. But I don't think that you will do yourself any favours if you go into an appeal acting as if you have been hard done by. Kent did exactly what they said that they would do, and gave you the school which YOU requested. Your mistake will have meant extra hassle both for them and for the family whose child might have got the place at the church school which your son was offered and so on down the line. Perhaps it would not be a good idea to put anyone's back up further?
As Belinda tried to explain it would have made absolutely no difference to your chances of a place at the church school if you had listed the grammar first. It doesn't matter how oversubscibed they are, they do not even know that you put them first. They consider every application equally. You didn't hedge your bets, therefore, you just got it wrong. Kent CC had no way of knowing that you would have preferred the grammar place, and weren't just using that as a fall-back. You told them via the CAF that, given a choice between that and the church school, you would prefer the church school.
Sorry if that sounds confrontational; it's not meant to be. But I don't think that you will do yourself any favours if you go into an appeal acting as if you have been hard done by. Kent did exactly what they said that they would do, and gave you the school which YOU requested. Your mistake will have meant extra hassle both for them and for the family whose child might have got the place at the church school which your son was offered and so on down the line. Perhaps it would not be a good idea to put anyone's back up further?
Dear Kent 99
It is a confrontational reply and given the pressure on sucessful non selective schools in Kent me.thinks you protest to much on KCC's behalf
This is an anonomous forum so I doubt our discussions with the school and KCC ( via Appeal and waiting lists) will be affected, it might put your back up but what would have happened if the Church school was over subscribed by 1st choice non passers?
Using your logic why doesn't KCC ask for 1st choice selective and 1st choice non selective? This would avoid the hassle you refer to.
Yes we have what we asked for but not what my child is entitled to, a major difference. I would also point out that in our area at least 3 other couples have made this mistake/ fallen into this trap.
It is a confrontational reply and given the pressure on sucessful non selective schools in Kent me.thinks you protest to much on KCC's behalf
This is an anonomous forum so I doubt our discussions with the school and KCC ( via Appeal and waiting lists) will be affected, it might put your back up but what would have happened if the Church school was over subscribed by 1st choice non passers?
Using your logic why doesn't KCC ask for 1st choice selective and 1st choice non selective? This would avoid the hassle you refer to.
Yes we have what we asked for but not what my child is entitled to, a major difference. I would also point out that in our area at least 3 other couples have made this mistake/ fallen into this trap.
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hermanmunster
- Posts: 12895
- Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:51 am
- Location: The Seaside
Hi
Difficult problem. Sounds like the LEA have done exactly what it said on the tin.
On the other hand perhaps it is time for the LEA in Kent to do what the LEAs in many other areas eg Lincs / N Yorks / Glocuester have done and produce the 11 plus results for parnets before you have to fill in the CAF. OK so we only had a week but at least we knew better what the options were.
Difficult problem. Sounds like the LEA have done exactly what it said on the tin.
On the other hand perhaps it is time for the LEA in Kent to do what the LEAs in many other areas eg Lincs / N Yorks / Glocuester have done and produce the 11 plus results for parnets before you have to fill in the CAF. OK so we only had a week but at least we knew better what the options were.
Hello Frodo,
Just thought that I would give a basic explanation of how the allocation of school places works as it does not seem to be clearly understood by quite a few people. I have no connection to Kent at all! Schools are not allowed to rank according to where you have placed them on your preference form.
The local authority receives the preference forms from parents. Suppose you have listed 3 schools, it then "sends " your application to each of these schools. Every school (or the LA if it is the admissions authority for the school) then ranks all of the applications it receives in the order in which they meet its admissions criteria, and transmits this back to the Local Authority. Thus School A, the first preference may have 150 places and you are ranked 100th; School B, the second preference may have 200 places and you are ranked 20th; School C, your third preference has 90 places and you are ranked 120th. The Local Authority then looks at the rankings and will give you a place at the school you ranked highest that is able to offer you a place. Thus in this example you would get your first preference school. Had you been ranked by your first preference school at say 170th, then the Local Authority would have been able to offer you your second preference school. As places start to be allocated so the ranking lists start to be amended - School B's list in this case no longer contains you as your first preference could offer a place.
Thus, the order in which you put schools on your form does not prejudice in any way your chances of getting a place there - you are ranked according to the admissions criteria wherever you have placed the school. This is why it is so important to put the schools down in your true order of preference.
Your Common Application Form will generally be made available to the admissions authority of any school for which you appeal, so you will have to explain why you did not put the school you really wanted in first place. I think that your best bet is probably to plead ignorance and say that although you read the County Council's booklet you did not really understand how it worked and thought you had to put down the school you thought you had the best chance of getting a place at.
Hope this explains things a little. Good luck.
Just thought that I would give a basic explanation of how the allocation of school places works as it does not seem to be clearly understood by quite a few people. I have no connection to Kent at all! Schools are not allowed to rank according to where you have placed them on your preference form.
The local authority receives the preference forms from parents. Suppose you have listed 3 schools, it then "sends " your application to each of these schools. Every school (or the LA if it is the admissions authority for the school) then ranks all of the applications it receives in the order in which they meet its admissions criteria, and transmits this back to the Local Authority. Thus School A, the first preference may have 150 places and you are ranked 100th; School B, the second preference may have 200 places and you are ranked 20th; School C, your third preference has 90 places and you are ranked 120th. The Local Authority then looks at the rankings and will give you a place at the school you ranked highest that is able to offer you a place. Thus in this example you would get your first preference school. Had you been ranked by your first preference school at say 170th, then the Local Authority would have been able to offer you your second preference school. As places start to be allocated so the ranking lists start to be amended - School B's list in this case no longer contains you as your first preference could offer a place.
Thus, the order in which you put schools on your form does not prejudice in any way your chances of getting a place there - you are ranked according to the admissions criteria wherever you have placed the school. This is why it is so important to put the schools down in your true order of preference.
Your Common Application Form will generally be made available to the admissions authority of any school for which you appeal, so you will have to explain why you did not put the school you really wanted in first place. I think that your best bet is probably to plead ignorance and say that although you read the County Council's booklet you did not really understand how it worked and thought you had to put down the school you thought you had the best chance of getting a place at.
Hope this explains things a little. Good luck.
