2019 Ranking

[MSD]

One question that I’ve never managed to get a good answer to (or even a plausible sounding estimate to) is how many points difference the age standardisation makes either way?
Anybody have a decent idea on this?
So let’s say someone who was a July birth got a 247 score, how many fewer points do you think she would have scored if she was a December birth, or a September birth?
Is it 1 or 2 points difference, or 9 or 10? I have absolutely no idea.

It doesn't quite work like that and there isn't a set difference in SD points between two ages. Please check the following post for mine and KenR's comments on age standardisation. This should provide further insight.

https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum ... 11&t=56294" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kentish_man]

So the one bit I did manage to make some sense of was this:

"There is a downside, they will be 6+ months older on the day of the exam and therefore the age standardisation will come into play, this can be typically 3-4 points for each standardisation so could impact the overall score by say as much as 12 points compared to if they had sat the exam on the original date."

So have I understood the wording correctly...
That 6 months difference in age could make 12 points difference in age standardised score?
Does that mean 11.5 months' difference, could make almost 24 points difference? (Seems extreme if true)

I'll be honest, the reason for me being interested in this is because my daughter scored far higher than I could have ever hoped she would.
Before I get too excited about the unexpected school possibilities her score opens up, I'd like to know that she isn't going to be in the bottom 1/4 of her class in year 7.
After all, day-to-day school work marked by secondary school teachers isn't 'age standardised'.

[kenyancowgirl]

If you accept that the 11+ on the day is a very arbitrary judge of real ability, then you will also accept that someone meeting the pass mark (or equivalent accepted level) has reached the standard required by the school that has that pass mark.

Yes you will hear stories about children who were “over tutored” then struggling at GS...in my experience, there are children who struggle at secondary, period, and it may or may not be related to tutoring/the level they entered at. The level of work at secondary is higher; the number of subjects are greater; the teaching can be different and children learn, develop, plateau at different stages.

We have friends who stormed the 11+, partly because of exceptional verbal skills, but now, the year of GCSEs are looking at possibly not gaining entry to 6th form as their ability in maths, chemistry, physics is poor (and they may not make the grade requirements without them). We have other friends who entered on appeal and are keeping up quite happily.

As long as your daughter understands that a) there is no “better” than those who did not pass the test - it’s arbitrary on the day and this means b) she should work hard and not assume she will “get” everything with no effort, c) she will not be the best at everything- there is usually someone better than you but use that as a personal challenge and ask for help when needed d) try new things - you might love them e) be the best you can be and be kind to everyone.

She will be fine.

[MSD]

"There is a downside, they will be 6+ months older on the day of the exam and therefore the age standardisation will come into play, this can be typically 3-4 points for each standardisation so could impact the overall score by say as much as 12 points compared to if they had sat the exam on the original date."

The above comment from KenR was based on some figureS he received from KE foundation on FOI. The age allowance will vary year on year. Quoting my statement from the previous thread, the age allowance that is included is ‘empirical’, i.e. it is based on the actual extent to which older pupils score more highly in the actual test, rather than an allowance that is fixed in advance before the test scores are known. Older children will only be penalized, if their month group together scored higher than the younger month group. But more often than not you will find the older age group will score higher as Ken pointed out.

I personally would not worry about her being in the bottom 1/4th of the class. I have not thus far come across any stats indicating children scoring higher for grammar entrance, or children who are older in age, do better in subsequent years. Rest assured, being consistent, hard-working and diligent will be the recipe for success rather than the entrance score.

Crossed with KCG

[gemgem]

"There is a downside, they will be 6+ months older on the day of the exam and therefore the age standardisation will come into play, this can be typically 3-4 points for each standardisation so could impact the overall score by say as much as 12 points compared to if they had sat the exam on the original date."

The above comment from KenR was based on some figure he received from KE foundation on FOI. The age allowance will vary year on year. Quoting my statement from the previous thread, the age allowance that is included is ‘empirical’, i.e. it is based on the actual extent to which older pupils score more highly in the actual test, rather than an allowance that is fixed in advance before the test scores are known. Older children will only be penalized, if their month group together scored higher than the younger month group. But more often than not you will find the older age group will score higher as Ken pointed out.

I personally would not worry about her being in the bottom 1/4th of the class. I have not thus far come across any stats indicating children scoring higher for grammar entrance, or children who are older in age, do better in subsequent years. Rest assured, being consistent, hard-working and diligent will be the recipe for success rather than the entrance score.

Crossed with KCG

12-24 marks between age groups seems to be bit exaggerated! There could be few marks difference.
But generally, older children had an advantage even if they had to sacrifice 4-5 marks compared to the younger ones. If you see the drastic changes of children in year 5-6, the smaller group get into that "maturity" in latter stage of year 6. 11 plus being a time bound -competitive exam, the older ones will learn the methods faster.
That's the reason many border line older students manage to get through while the younger ones just drop out for few marks.
Every student is different and we can't make a conclusion.
11 plus score is just an achievement for admission to secondary. They start the secondary on a blank sheet. Those who have real talent and will to work hard will excel.
Those who got very high scores just because of over tutoring will be trail behind border line students will real capability.

Secondary schools will make grades based on the capability not on age. As long as your child is capable...nothing to worry. Good luck..

[Inner Chimp]

That’s really useful.
Although there are probably 2,500 more kids who do Birmingham 11+, presumably you can make an equivalent calculation about what percentile each score sits at?

Kind of puts some of the impressive exam results the grammars get into perspective, when you realise what a small percentage of the very highest 11+ scorers they are admitting. There’s ve something seriously wrong if they weren’t getting mostly 8s and 9s.
And thats just from an already self selecting group of kids who have chosen to do the exam. If I’ve understood this graphic correctly, only about 6,000 out of the app 18,000 year 6 children take the test?
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/download/ ... e_2016.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Based on the SD score, you can roughly work out the percentile and rank anyway. In the below post, I used standard deviation of 15, which may be on the higher side looking at some of the recent stats. If you change it to 12.5, you will find the ranking will pretty much match what Warwickshire are showing in the link you provided.

https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum ... 5&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I’ve got to say I love your maths ability MSD your posts are very insightful

[MSD]

I’ve got to say I love your maths ability MSD your posts are very insightful

Thank you! Posters like yourself with a postive outlook, rather than the usual doom and gloom we are so used to seeing on public forums, make any posts useful

[Skylark]

I’ve got to say I love your maths ability MSD your posts are very insightful

Thank you! Posters like yourself with a postive outlook, rather than the usual doom and gloom we are so used to seeing on public forums, make any posts useful

I concur, all of this 11plus would of been like a minefield to navigate - without helpful, knowledgeable posters such as MSD.

Thank you from a 'newbie'. I hope I can give back one day, with confidence.

[AK loving Dad]

That’s really useful.
Although there are probably 2,500 more kids who do Birmingham 11+, presumably you can make an equivalent calculation about what percentile each score sits at?

Kind of puts some of the impressive exam results the grammars get into perspective, when you realise what a small percentage of the very highest 11+ scorers they are admitting. There’s ve something seriously wrong if they weren’t getting mostly 8s and 9s.
And thats just from an already self selecting group of kids who have chosen to do the exam. If I’ve understood this graphic correctly, only about 6,000 out of the app 18,000 year 6 children take the test?
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/download/ ... e_2016.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Based on the SD score, you can roughly work out the percentile and rank anyway. In the below post, I used standard deviation of 15, which may be on the higher side looking at some of the recent stats. If you change it to 12.5, you will find the ranking will pretty much match what Warwickshire are showing in the link you provided.

https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum ... 5&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DS2 scored 224 and checking the Warwickshire cohort ranking was about ~800th (785 to 815) out of the 3369. I'm trying to do the maths on this but cant get the equation to work; i.e. lets say Z = (112-100)/15 = 0.8 giving us 0.7881 from the table. Using this he should about 713th out the 3369. I can only get him to about 800th using an SD of 16.5! - please can someone tell me what I am doing wrong; also surely KE B'ham / Warwickshire do not use 16.5?....Thanks

[MSD]

What was the breakdown for each area AK loving dad?