Proposed admission arrangements 2011
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fm
Mike, I think initially you will be wrong in your assumption that there will be no point in putting Sutton down.
Sutton will still be last choice or no choice for many of my pupils in central Birmingham. Sutton parents and tutors will be caught unawares by the new exam and not be geered up to it so may not perform as well as Birmingham pupils well-versed by now in the CEM exam. There are also more girl places available there than anywhere else.
I think, for the first year at least, it may rank below Handsworth Girls in 'last score-in'.
Oddly enough I don't think the KE-style exam is prone to 'children having a bad day'. Yes, they may mess up the timing in one section and not finish half of it or miss out a page or have to go to the toilet, but this exam is very forgiving of slip-ups like that. You are much more likely to mess up a traditional 50 minute VR test by spending far too long on one section, then panicking your way through the rest of the exam.
Out of interest, why would the MOCK 11+ industry do well? I have no vested interest in this (I actively discourage pupils from doing these) but am interested in your reasoning.
Sutton will still be last choice or no choice for many of my pupils in central Birmingham. Sutton parents and tutors will be caught unawares by the new exam and not be geered up to it so may not perform as well as Birmingham pupils well-versed by now in the CEM exam. There are also more girl places available there than anywhere else.
I think, for the first year at least, it may rank below Handsworth Girls in 'last score-in'.
Oddly enough I don't think the KE-style exam is prone to 'children having a bad day'. Yes, they may mess up the timing in one section and not finish half of it or miss out a page or have to go to the toilet, but this exam is very forgiving of slip-ups like that. You are much more likely to mess up a traditional 50 minute VR test by spending far too long on one section, then panicking your way through the rest of the exam.
Out of interest, why would the MOCK 11+ industry do well? I have no vested interest in this (I actively discourage pupils from doing these) but am interested in your reasoning.
My instinct is that the KE test in Nov shouldn't be the first time our daughter has ever sat an exam. If there's a simple and straightforward way of reducing the risks on the crucial day then I think we'd be foolish to ignore it. Anecdotally, many people in recent years have used the Sutton exam as a mock test for KE so I'm not the first person to think that.Out of interest, why would the MOCK 11+ industry do well?
However, from the relatively little that's been said about these commercial mock tests around this forum I think they might often be counterproductive (which is why I'm "mulling it over"). So I'd be very interested to hear your own reasons for advising against them (NB - I won't be online again until Thursday evening, so if you post and I don't respond it isn't out of rudeness!).
The trouble is we only have pure guesswork to go on. My own feeling is that SC will come out roughly similar to Camp Hill Girls which will probably be our first choice; if that's the case then it won't work very well as a fall back.I think, for the first year at least, it may rank below Handsworth Girls in 'last score-in'.
I certainly hope you're right! I shall be clinging to that thought in the early hours throughout most of next February...I don't think the KE-style exam is prone to 'children having a bad day'.
Mike
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fm
I'm afraid I have always been against using Sutton as a mock. It was totally dissimilar to the KE exam and often led children to have a very false idea of what to expect in the KE exam. I only ever advise those doing it for real (as in will accept a place) to sit it.
Most years the majority of my pupils encounter their first real exam when they do the KE exam and the only difference between them and the ones who do do Sutton I have observed is that the non-Sutton takers tend to be more confident on exit from the KE exam. I have had all varieties of situations (Sutton takers for real, Sutton for practice, KE as first) and it has made no appreciable difference. The ones you expect to get in do (whether they have done Sutton or not) and the rest sometimes do but, if they don't, are likely to get Sutton if they have done it for real.
As to mock tests, I am never sure of the point. If the child does badly, he feels bad and the parent goes into meltdown and it becomes a negative experience. If the child does brilliantly, then he probably didn't need to do a mock in the first place. If a child does mediocrely, you still can't read too much into that because many children, especially boys, wait till the real thing to pull out the stops.
You might be better doing a run through yourself. That's what I do--mock up a little runthrough of the usual suspects (comprehension, maths test, arithmetic etc.)--but go through in a low key fashion, all the time emphasising to put each section behind them as they do it.
Sorry, still don't agree. Sutton will, at least for the first year, be below Handsworth Girls.
Most years the majority of my pupils encounter their first real exam when they do the KE exam and the only difference between them and the ones who do do Sutton I have observed is that the non-Sutton takers tend to be more confident on exit from the KE exam. I have had all varieties of situations (Sutton takers for real, Sutton for practice, KE as first) and it has made no appreciable difference. The ones you expect to get in do (whether they have done Sutton or not) and the rest sometimes do but, if they don't, are likely to get Sutton if they have done it for real.
As to mock tests, I am never sure of the point. If the child does badly, he feels bad and the parent goes into meltdown and it becomes a negative experience. If the child does brilliantly, then he probably didn't need to do a mock in the first place. If a child does mediocrely, you still can't read too much into that because many children, especially boys, wait till the real thing to pull out the stops.
You might be better doing a run through yourself. That's what I do--mock up a little runthrough of the usual suspects (comprehension, maths test, arithmetic etc.)--but go through in a low key fashion, all the time emphasising to put each section behind them as they do it.
Sorry, still don't agree. Sutton will, at least for the first year, be below Handsworth Girls.
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stressedaddy
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:49 pm
I am no expert, but doesn't this have a fundemental issue with number of places and the offers that go out. Parents who only want say BV would put this as their first choice at present moment and the appicilation is indepenedent of the LEA forms, as they are completed and submitted by early Sept (as I understand it),. They can than complete the LEA form and could also take the KEGS exams. If they passed the KEGS test, they had the option of rejecting the BV offer if they passed both.The most significant feature from a grammar school point of view is that it's proposed that the KE grammars, Bishop Vesey and Sutton Girls will form a partnership known as the "Consortium of Grammar Schools in Birmingham"; there will be a single common application form and a single common selection test for all 7 schools; the test will be on the first or second Saturday in November (depending on half term dates).
Admission arrangements for Handsworth Grammar will remain separate.
Deadline for comments on the arrangements is 1st Feb.
Now, the children who don't pass the KEGS will get into BV if for example its on teir LEA form, depriving those who only want BV as their first choice school as places will be awared on marks and the distance criteria.
Also, what is the aim of the consortuim, is it to become more elistist? What are the long term aims. It would be nice to know what the rationale lies behind the joint venture, because some along the line, some parents and children will loose out, my view only.
Thanks.......
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firsttimermum
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:31 pm
Oh no! I had heard a rumour about BS and SC changing over to CEM/Durham exams, considering my son came out near tears from KE exams. Given the fact miss DD is nowhere near as keen or even interested in grammar schools I think we'll have to really start working hard.
I think it will prevent people using the BV and SC as mocks or practise runs, but also prevent people gaining places if they really want it as their first choice.
I doubt it will change if it is under consederation..just think of how much of the admin work would be cut down, so its really beneficial for the council to employ such a scheme.
FTM
I think it will prevent people using the BV and SC as mocks or practise runs, but also prevent people gaining places if they really want it as their first choice.
I doubt it will change if it is under consederation..just think of how much of the admin work would be cut down, so its really beneficial for the council to employ such a scheme.
FTM
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stressedaddy
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:49 pm
My son, ooppps, DS, sat only the KEGS test in Nov and the thought of taking the BV test never occurred to us. Personally, I don't understand what can be gained from sitting a test to gain experience and sit another test that is totally different. Its also an abuse of the system, particularily when the parents of no intention of allowing their child to attend that school. It also creates more work for the admin staff who have to deal with the process.
My analogy is simple, in lfe you don't get a chance to sit several different exams, such as GCES's and A Levels, at various centres, you turn up on the day and take the exams and wait for the results.
You don't sit a test for driving a car as a dry run and than turn up a week later and take a HGV test do you?
The "dry-run" taking the BV test doesn't mean much as you don't get the results staright away and so you don't know how the kids have faired. The whole process seems meaningless.
My analogy is simple, in lfe you don't get a chance to sit several different exams, such as GCES's and A Levels, at various centres, you turn up on the day and take the exams and wait for the results.
You don't sit a test for driving a car as a dry run and than turn up a week later and take a HGV test do you?
The "dry-run" taking the BV test doesn't mean much as you don't get the results staright away and so you don't know how the kids have faired. The whole process seems meaningless.
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fm
Winners:
a) Bright kids who had no need to do the Sutton exam either for practice or place as they were always going to get KE
b) tutors --able to concentrate on the contents of just one exam
c) Borderline children who will no longer be spreading their efforts between two very different exams so are more likely to score higher
d) the schools themselves because it will a simpler and cheaper system to run
Losers:
a) good (although not necessarily great) mathematicians with a flair for non-verbal, a logical streak for code work in the VR and good spelling skills, but essentially weak in the areas of English tested by KE due to limited home reading/conversation i.e. advanced vocabulary, comprehension and cloze tests.
b) a certain percentage of Sutton children who will probably lose out to Birmingham children who may now include BV/Sutton on their form (as there is no extra exam to do) and, having ultimately not attained a KE (possibly against expectation), will now be more likely to accept the Sutton place.
There may be a certain amount of traffic going the other way (Sutton children now putting KE down as they don't have to do an extra exam) but, historically, some of the more able children from Sutton already do target KE Aston/Handsworth in preference to the Sutton schools. I think it will largely be Birmingham children winning out in this new arrangement--at least, in the short term, while Sutton parents/tutors get up to speed on what is required for this very different exam.
a) Bright kids who had no need to do the Sutton exam either for practice or place as they were always going to get KE
b) tutors --able to concentrate on the contents of just one exam
c) Borderline children who will no longer be spreading their efforts between two very different exams so are more likely to score higher
d) the schools themselves because it will a simpler and cheaper system to run
Losers:
a) good (although not necessarily great) mathematicians with a flair for non-verbal, a logical streak for code work in the VR and good spelling skills, but essentially weak in the areas of English tested by KE due to limited home reading/conversation i.e. advanced vocabulary, comprehension and cloze tests.
b) a certain percentage of Sutton children who will probably lose out to Birmingham children who may now include BV/Sutton on their form (as there is no extra exam to do) and, having ultimately not attained a KE (possibly against expectation), will now be more likely to accept the Sutton place.
There may be a certain amount of traffic going the other way (Sutton children now putting KE down as they don't have to do an extra exam) but, historically, some of the more able children from Sutton already do target KE Aston/Handsworth in preference to the Sutton schools. I think it will largely be Birmingham children winning out in this new arrangement--at least, in the short term, while Sutton parents/tutors get up to speed on what is required for this very different exam.
Thanks for your thoughts, fm; perhaps I should just trust to CEM (it worked last time anyway, and Miss 1880 is supposed to be the brains of the family).
If there are to be any losers in this, it will likely be the rigorously NFER-drilled prep school kids we hear so much about (if they exist). Otherwise I don't think it will make a big difference to the numbers commuting between Birmingham and Sutton (in either direction). Now if there were to be a few Green Bus routes to/from Sutton, though - that would make a big difference!
Mike
I'm not privy to any inside information about this. But it will save the LEA and the Foundation between them around 50% of the cost of running 11+ exams in Birmingham, so you can see why they'd be keen to see it go through. But if you have any worries or objections, tell them - that's what this document is all about, it's for consultation.BB248 wrote:SO disappointed to read Mike's post suggesting that this is a done deal
If there are to be any losers in this, it will likely be the rigorously NFER-drilled prep school kids we hear so much about (if they exist). Otherwise I don't think it will make a big difference to the numbers commuting between Birmingham and Sutton (in either direction). Now if there were to be a few Green Bus routes to/from Sutton, though - that would make a big difference!
Mike
