Open day musings.....

[JaneEyre]

As for some of the comments made about the number of GCSE's limited to 10 in the boys school. We were again impressed with the ethos that the school believes that the boys should concentrate and do well on the subjects that really count.
MM2

I am just surprised that CHB offer only 10 GCSEs while other grammar schools offer more: 14 at FW, 13 at SCGSG... I don't know for the other grammars

Again, for me, this is 'cheating' the system and just thinking about A * and the league tables ... not the wide knowledge the pupils could be helped to acquire.

I already said my personal experience abroad so I don't really want to repeat myself. But to cut short, I would say that when I was 14, the study of a classical language was obligatory in France. Being the child number six in a large family, and my parents having got some experiecne of the system, they took an appointment wiht the head of my school and managed to obtain that I would study two classical languages and not just one. Having a a son two years younger than me, the head concocted a timetable just for me in order that I would study Latin and Greek with my two MFL ( I am not sure he would have done that if his son was not to follow my steps.. At least, with me opening the way, he wouldn't be accused of favoritism).
I was the only one in my year to do that and I did go on with the many extra-curricular activities I used to have, namely three sports (horseriding, tennis.classical dance), music (piano lesson + musical theory i.e. two separate lessons + daily practise of half an hour), Sunday school (or equivalent for 14 years old, a kind a biblical studies), scouting...

Despite all that (many activities and another language), I kept flying high and remember comparing regularly my average with the other good boy of the class with whom I was competing to be first.

I think that learning many things is a matter of being well organised and not wasting time with some stupid stuffs... Of course, there are limits that we can't exceed and each child is different in that regard...

I just regret deeply that CHB seems more interested in the league tables than offering as many opportunities to their pupils as possible . That's my personal view and don't want to offend anybody. I know how much many people have just this word in their mouth: 'Champ Hill is the best!'

[JaneEyre]

Forgot to say how much I enjoyed my Greek lessons, and indeed kept its study till the Baccalaureat.

Had the head not provided me the possibilioty to study Greek and Latin, I would never have known that beautiful langauge as I would have chosen Latin like most pupils used to do: we were 26 in Latin and just 4 in Greek!!!! It was great !!!

I have so wonderful memories!!! (except the one of learning by heart (at an advanced level) bits of the poem of the Odyssey ... We had a teacher with some habits of 'a previous age' when learning by rote was a habit... I remember plodding on learning by heart my 5 or ten verses per week But that didn't put me off my Greek studies!!! And at the end of the year, she did some efforts to help us to practise some modern songs by Mikis Theodorakis


I feel I can't manage to express myself well enough to share my enthusisam for the study of Ancient Greek!

[JaneEyre]

Just forgot to add another thing

I am trying to debate on this since mm2, um and no-ball answered me, and couldn't find the time. First of all, I wish to thank you for the time you take to answer on the forum...
I taped my messages today in a hurry and therefore, may have been to direct and sarky As the mother rabbit says to her son in Bambi 1 'turn your tongue 7 times before saying anything' ... I haven't done that and apologise if I upset anyone... but I do find this debate really really interesting!

I have done certainly many mistakes in English that I didn't take the time to correct a bit. dont have time for that.. again my apologies...

[JaneEyre]

KECHB RULES OK!

It might change as so far, they have been 'cheating' the system by making their pupils resit their GCSEs if they didn't have A*. It seems that this won't be possible in the future, so it will be interesting to see how low they will 'drop' in the league tables ...

I explain myself:
If a pupil have a A at his GCSEs at CHB or CHG, they are encouraged to sit that exam again, in the hope that tey will get A*.
I have no idea if this is done also at FW. Does anybody know about that?

sorry, I have been misleading.. wantesd to state:
For the courses which are currently modular, they are offering children who underperform relative to either their or the school's view of the likely outcome the chance to retake earlier modules to get more UMS points.

[xyzzy]

sorry, I have been misleading.. wantesd to state:
For the courses which are currently modular, they are offering children who underperform relative to either their or the school's view of the likely outcome the chance to retake earlier modules to get more UMS points.

Which for parents currently debating 11+ and open day issues is moot, as the current Y9 cohort will be, if Gove's plans go to schedule, taking linear "end of Y11" GCSEs, and even if that slips by a year the current Y8 cohort definitely will. Given children filling in preference forms, taking exams and attending open days are two years yet further behind, modular GCSEs will be a distant memory by the time they arrive in Y10.

[um]

KECHB have changed this year to iGCSEs in the core subjects and MFL.

Less or no coursework and a linear progression to final exams.

[xyzzy]

KECHB have changed this year to iGCSEs in the core subjects and MFL.

Less or no coursework and a linear progression to final exams.

I think it's going to be very interesting watching the response of universities to iGCSE.

Five years ago, when quite a few grammars first mooted going to the IB, it looked like it would turn into the gold standard for university admission. Now it increasingly looks as though the equivalence ratio with A Levels isn't favourable; there's some fear and loathing as people who would have been able to get into particular courses with the A Levels that schools like that deliver now aren't getting enough IB points to meet the offers the same courses are making. You can blame that on a variety of factors, and it may be that universities are being fools to themselves in not recognising the qualification's merits, but the hard truth is that it looks like right now, the IB is not advantageous for university admission in England. I suspect that if a school today proposed switching entirely to the IB it would not be welcomed by parents in the way it was five years ago; it would be fascinating to hear from parents of Y12/13 students in schools that have announced complete moves to IB as to whether they still think switch from A Levels to IB is a good move.

At the high end of the disparity, Maths at Cambridge requires A*AA (ie, 380 UCAS points), but 40-42 IB points (ie 611-654 UCAS points). To take an example of great interest to a lot of KE pupils, medicine at Birmingham is AAA/A*AA (ie 360-380 UCAS points), or 36 IB points (523 UCAS points). UCAS points reflect an analysis of the content, effort and rigour of a qualification, and are regarded as fairly objective; the subjective market value of a qualification is the courses you can get onto with it. If the universities are right, UCAS are very wrong, and vice versa. That Birmingham medicine rejects out of hand both the French Bacc and the German Abitur says that a lot of conventional wisdom about broad-based qualifications has not made much headway with admissions tutors on high-demand courses.

iGCSE may or may not prove to be a success, but the claims of its inevitable superiority sound very much like what was being said about the IB: more rigorous, wider-ranging, more challenging, etc. If it turns out that the equivalence used to convert between GCSE and iGCSE grades doesn't favour the latter, then it's all a bit of a waste of time. And if it turns out that the equivalence is actively harmful, then where do people stand? To return to Birmingham medicine, you need 7 GCSEs at A* to apply, and there's no mention of what's needed if you're applying with iGCSEs, so instantly you're into the realms of "other qualifications".

And there's another factor that's something of lurking menace. Several of the more "elite" universities have been heavily criticised for failing to open admissions widely enough to children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Children from affluent backgrounds are disproportionately likely to be taking iGCSEs. So a university which started to favour people sitting iGCSEs over the standard qualification would risk further opprobrium on that front, because the main effect would be to deny interviews and offers to pupils offering standard GCSEs. If a Russell Group university not merely saw its rate of affluent students rising, but was also seen to be interviewing and making offers to fewer disadvantaged students, it would be crucified by the government.

A lot of schools, and parents, hailed the arrival of the IB as that of a new rosy dawn. Reality is rather more nuanced, and the very best you can say would be that the IB is not disadvantageous, but anecdotally IB university offers seem surprisingly high compared to equivalent A Level offers. The iGCSE is attracting praise from roughly the same sort of groups on roughly the same sort of grounds. It's only when statistically significant numbers of students start to apply that we'll see if it's negotiable coinage, and what the exchange rate is. Personally, I'm happy to stand on the beach and watch others find out how cold the water is.

[mike1880]

I just regret deeply that CHB seems more interested in the league tables than offering as many opportunities to their pupils as possible

The opposite is true; Camp Hill could improve their league table standing breathtakingly easily by throwing another 4 GCSE "equivalents" at their pupils and accepting a slide in grades as the price of doing so.

There are only two league table measurements for GCSE: % achieving 5 A*-C and total number of GCSE points per pupil. Pretty much every grammar school expects to get 98-99-100 for the first measure, so if they want to stand out in the league tables they do so by going for as many GCSE points as they can, and the way to do that is by inflicting as many exams on their pupils as they can get away with.

Consequently, if you look at the GCSE league tables you'll see it's headed by schools like Five Ways and Lawrence Sherriff in Warwickshire that take the "Northern Ireland voting" approach to GCSEs - take a lot and take them early - not by schools like Camp Hill that focus on getting good grades in a modest number of exams. Five Ways gets 700+ GCSE points per pupil while Camp Hill gets ~600 and is nowhere to be seen in GCSE-based league tables. On the other hand, Five Ways gets an average 50 points per GCSE entry compared to Camp Hill's 60 points.

The effects of that difference in emphasis can be seen, in part, in um's statistics for Oxbridge entry. Camp Hill is, imho, interested in maximising its pupils' opportunities, not in looking good in league tables, and that means focussing on grades, not on racking up a vast number of exams.

Mike

[no_ball]

Mike, excellent précis on IB and potential pitfalls. I too came to the same conclusion and turned KES down for them. Everything in my heart was saying KES, but long term the IB route just didn't feel right.

I too have stated previously that if KECHB ever allows it's boys to do 14 gcse's then the other grammars better watch out. The balance between studying and extra curricular is perfect (for now, its been a month!)

[succeed]

Hi,

KES made the switch from GCSE to IGCSE a couple of years ago, partly because it is believed they are better preparation for the IB than GCSES. The results from the first cohort to make the switch have been outstanding , equating to the school's second ever best set of 'end of KS4 results' A very promising start. We can only wait and see how the first cohort of IB students fare, however, it is reassuring to hear that most good universities are now making offers of 35 points rather than 38.